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Anonymous

A buddy of mine saw some documentary (not sure how accurate) and he said the survivors of Troy went on to Found Rome way back when. Geographically speaking it's quite a walk from Troy to the Italian penninsula.<br>
<br>
Is there any truth to this, or is it one of those "legends" we hear about, made so by Hollywood? <p>Magnus/Matt<br>
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix"<br>
Niagara Falls, Canada</p><i></i>

Anonymous

Magnus/Matt,<br>
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp I'm a bit surprised no one has responded yet, but there are two ways to answer this. First, the quick way: The escape from Troy, the voyages (not a land trek), and the adventures of Aeneas are addressed in Livy 1, and is the whole subject of Vergil's "Aeneid." Check out the friezes on the Ara Pacis for the iconography of Aeneas as " Pius Pater" and the costuming for the Lusus Troiae, the Trojan Games. The less than quick way is to state that Vergil put together many exisitng legends and traditions which date back as early as the 6th Cent. BCE. This is well documented, ceaselessly argued about and there is much scholarship on the subject.<br>
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Bottom line: Romans loved their "Trojan ancestors;" Hollywood had nothing to do with it.<br>
<br>
Wade Heaton<br>
[email protected] <br>
www.togaman.com (recent trouble with the server is being addressed at this time) <p></p><i></i>
It's the Aeneas legend, quite a bit older than Hollywood. Julius C himself claimed to be a descendant of Aeneas (and Venus too, but that's another story). I believe there's some indications that tribes from Northern Greece and the Balkan may have had intimate contact with the local people in c.800 BC, but that's still a bit to go to Troy.<br>
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--edit-- we replied at the same time -- <p>Greets<br>
<br>
Jasper</p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=jasperoorthuys>Jasper Oorthuys</A> at: 5/20/04 3:05 pm<br></i>

Anonymous

if this is speculated that the surviving trojans founded rome, then that brings up an interesting thought. Since the romans, i believe, established a military fortification in present day france and named it paris, and since the surviving son of priam was named Paris is there a connection? <p></p><i></i>
Nope, there was a Gallic tribe in the area that was called the Parisii. Roman Paris was called Lutetia. <p>Greets<br>
<br>
Jasper</p><i></i>

Anonymous

thanks for the clear up an interesting concidence if it wasn't named for the gallic tribe. my imperial roman history is a bit weak compared to my knowledge of the republic which i know a lot about. But again thanks for the correction. <p></p><i></i>

Anonymous

btw if I remember correctly Aeneas didn't found Rome but Alba Longa where Romulus and Remus where born. Later Romulus founded Rome, I mean that's the story. In reality I don't think the Romans were connected or related with the Trojans, especially because the whole story of the Trojan war is a novel. So you could say the Romans needed ancestors connecting them with a Greek culture, that's why they came up with the story of Aeneas founding Alba Longa and based the whole thing on Homer. That's more or less the short version. <p></p><i></i>
Roman tradition (as embroidered on by Virgil) had it that Aeneas founded Alba Longa, and that Romulus and Remus were descendants of his son Iulus (nb: Julius - the alleged ancestor of another great Roman).<br>
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However, Greek tradition had a quite different take on the story that the Romans...<br>
<br>
In Homer, Aeneas is King of the Dardanians with familial ties to the House of Troy with ambitions to rule Troy after Priam (as in several of his battles against Achilles).<br>
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According to Greek myth, Aeneas possibly betrayed the city of Troy when it fell (nb: no wooden horse!!!) for which service the Achaeans let him live. The reason was his ambition to be King of Troy - something that Priam would never allow. Alternative myths say that Aeneas was captured by Neoptolomos son of Achilles, and ransomed back to the Dardanians - later to die living in Thrace, while his son was eventually to become King over what remained of Troy.<br>
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In other words; Aeneas voyage to Rome is almost certainly myth. It's not consistent with earlier myths known, and while the earlier myths at least have some historical basis, there is none to support the myths probably self-invented by the Romans. <p>Strategy <br>
Designer/Developer <br>
Imperium - Rise of Rome</p><i></i>

Anonymous

This one is a favorite subject of mine.<br>
I built my own personal theory about this. Part of it is based on archaeology and established history and the rest comes from my imagination --too fertile maybe?<br>
First I observed that the "legend" looked like a two part story, or rather two different stories mixed together: Romulus/Remus on one part and Aeneas on the other.<br>
The ancient authors went to great lenghts trying to reconcile the one story with the other. A daunting task if there ever was one..<br>
First, the Romulus/Remus story. That one looks real, if you dig into it.<br>
It begins with dynastic strife, somewhere around 780/770 BC. Numitor, king of Alba Longa, is overthrown by his brother Amulius. Being a prudent person Amulius probably dispatches or puts away the rest of the would-be heirs as was customary in these situations.<br>
However he spares Numitor's daughter, Rhea Silvia and sends her to the ancient equivalent of a convent: he makes her a Vestal Virgin to bar her from having children..<br>
But the Vestal Rhea Silvia is either raped, or takes a lover, who is "officially" Mars, the God of War. That makes things easier...<br>
The twin brothers Romulus and Remus are born of that union. Naturally Amulius gets worried about it but he can't dispatch the kids because they are "sacer" (taboo), being the sons of Mars, whoever that "Mars" was..<br>
So he abandons them to the Tiber instead, hoping they'll drown. But they are found and fed by a shewolf and a woodpecker, both creatures of Mars.<br>
They are subsequently discovered and raised by Faustulus, one of Amulius shepherds.<br>
I suspect the shewolf story was invented by that Faustulus to explain why the kids did not drown. A more realistic version would be that he is ordered to sacrifice the kids to the Tiber River God but cannot do it and raises the Twins secretly until they are old enough to take care of themselves. It is called "plausible deniability" nowadays: "I didnt do it, Mars did..."<br>
Go figure.. With the Gods, you can't be sure of anything. Especially the ancient Gods, who were not know for their kindness...<br>
The boys, being certain that they indeed are sons of Mars --a good morale booster-- thus grow up with a band of shepherds and they eventually come back with a vengeance to Alba Longa, dispatch Amulius and restore Numitor to his throne.<br>
Then they go back to the Palatine hill where the shewolf is supposed to have found them, and in april 21st, 753 B.C. (officially..), Rome is founded.<br>
"Insociabile regnum", Romulus dispatches Remus and remains sole king.<br>
Note that this does not mean the construction of the city yet, but the creation of a political entity.<br>
However, remnants of an important defensive wall dated around 750 B.C. were discovered at the foot of the Palatine, indicating that a ruler then was powerful enough to undertake such an important building program at the time the "legend" says Rome was founded.<br>
So, maybe he was called Romulus, after all..<br>
Another often overlooked fact is that the Etruscan cities were also founded about that time. It was thus a general and momentous change in the whole area.<br>
The population grows quickly, thanks to the establishment of an asylum wood, an ancient attested practice which consisted of turning some wooded areas into sacred zones where fugitives and outcasts could seek refuge without fear of being pursued.<br>
Lacking women the Romans decide to go get some in the neighborhood and then comes the episode of the "rape" (the carrying off) of the Sabines. This is a typical practice among primitive cultures, along with cattle raids.<br>
What follow is also well documented and still happens today in a ritualized form, I think among some saharan desert tribes.<br>
The Sabines led by their king Titus Tatius show up in arms to get their women back, a battle begins with the Romans and is stopped by the Sabine women.<br>
No wonder Athena, Goddess of Wisdom, is a woman.. <br>
The result is an alliance between two cultures: the Sabines --which buried their dead-- and the Romans --which cremated them. This is syncretism, a practice that is a typical trait of the Roman culture and certainly made Rome what the City became aftewards.<br>
This is further shown by the alternance of Roman and Sabine early kings at the head of this very early confederation, a practice continued with the two alternating consuls of the Republic.<br>
Until now, all this is documented either by archaelogy, or by ethnology and study of primitive cultures.<br>
Then come the Etruscans. About a century, maybe less, after the Foundation, the Etruscans extend their influence over Rome, bringing their art, their religious practices and their architectural know-how.<br>
And their legends of course.<br>
Now comes my theory which is based on hints and assumptions, really..<br>
The Etruscans are still a very enigmatic people. Some scholars consider them natives of Italy, while some others, for linguistic reasons, think they come from Thrace or western Turkey, in other words the area around Troy.<br>
If the Thrace theory is right, we may assume that those migrants' legends included the story of a great war during which the Achaeans destroyed mighty Troy, and the episode of the flight of some survivors from the House of Priam.<br>
Between 1200 BC (fall of Troy) and 753 BC (Foundation) four centuries are almost completely missing in the record. All we know is that these were times of great upheaveals, wars, and migrations.<br>
The idea of people migrating from Thrace/Western Turkey to northern Iialy is not far fetched. We all know the Great Invasions and how Vandals for instance, coming originally from Northern Germany eventually settled in North Africa. It could be a yet undocumented "volksvanderung". As the ancient wisdom says, Man has no roots, Man has legs..<br>
When the Etruscans were influential in Rome, they imported their legends along with the rest, including the fall of Troy and the Aeneas episode, which could be the symbolisation of the great trek of Troy's survivors, or rather the great trek of the people of that area, following an general upheaval of which the War of Troy was only an important episode.<br>
Then some very, very courageous and imaginative Roman scholars tried to reconclile those two unreconciliable stories, and some, like the patrician Julii, even took advantage of it to further their political ambitions.<br>
That was long... <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/[email protected]narmytalk>Antoninus Lucretius</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://lucretius.homestead.com/files/Cesar_triste.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 5/21/04 2:13 pm<br></i>

Anonymous

But well said. Cool ideas Antonius. <p>Magnus/Matt<br>
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix"<br>
Niagara Falls, Canada</p><i></i>
Apart from the little hitch that "Troyan" legends unmistakably built up under the impetus of Greek influence and (I seem to recall) there being no traces existing of such legends prior to the Hellenistic period.<br>
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If one is to believe Plutarch, the earliest author to write about Aeneas as the founder of Troy is Diocles of Peparethus - a Greek. So the evidence for a Greek invention of the story to be latter wholesale copied by Romans eager to show that Rome was not "barbarian" is quite strong. IIRC, the legend only really becomes "fact" during the time of Augustus who almost single-handedly established it (through ensuring the publication of the Aeneid and by refounding Ilium). Plutarch incidentally describe a lot of the different legends (only some of which contain either Trojans or Romulus and Remus) in his Life of Romulus.<br>
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Besides that, my impression was that the Etruscans were more of Rumanian origin - not Thracian. The time period of the Etruscan migration does fit with approximately the dating of the Trojan wars though.<br>
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It's a nice hypothesis though. <p>Strategy <br>
Designer/Developer <br>
Imperium - Rise of Rome</p><i></i>

John Maddox Roberts

The poems of Jomer were the equivalent of holy writ in the ancient Mediterranean world, so much so that people thought that virtually all of their culture derived from them. Rome was not alone - every city that amounted to anything came up with a foundation story that connected them to a figure in Homer. The resort city of Baiae, for instance, claimed to be founded by Baios, the steersman of Odysseus. There were innumerable others. <p></p><i></i>
A small correction. According to the Cambridge AH, the first known mention of Aeneas in connection with Rome comes from a Greek - Alkimos of Sicily c 350 BC. The text goes on to point out some problems with the Aeneas legends (e.g., there being 350+ years between the fall of Troy and the generally accepted date - by the Romans - for the legendary founding of Rome). <p>Strategy <br>
Designer/Developer <br>
Imperium - Rise of Rome</p><i></i>
Check out T.J.Cornell, The Beginnings of Rome (London 1995) for all this, including the early roman military systems. <p>Greets<br>
<br>
Jasper</p><i></i>