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Thucydides gives a fairly detailed description of the Spartan army of Mantinea: 7 Lochoi of 512 hoplites, 600 Sciritai, an unknown number of Neodanomeis/Brasidians and Arcadian hoplites.
Does anyone have an idea of the number of Spartiates in the 7 Lochoi ? And the number of emancipated Helots ?
Each lochos had 512 holites. So I may be wrong but seven lochoi make 3584 Spartans.We don't know the number of helots taken in each battle,and perhaps each time there was a different number. Some assume 2 helots per Spartan. In the battle of Plataia Herodotus speak of 7 helots per Spartan,meaning that they took them all in the campaign. In Mantineia this number of Spartans is more than half of the Homoioi the existed at that time.So perhaps they had a considerable number of helots with them,and also because the battle took place very near their city,they must have feared a revolt. So, we can only assume they were many.
Khaire
Giannis
It is reasonable to assume that the levy of homoi at Mantinea in 418 was a large one. Precise numbers I cannot give (at the office) but will endeavour to do so given time to consult the relevant work in the Library of Paralus at home.

It is often stated that Leuktra was the Spartan's "battle of the bulge" - the battle which opened Laconia to the enevitable end. This might well be so. What is not always understood is that Sparta faced exactly that prospect in 418. Alkibiades' inspired diplomatic engineering and agitation amongst Sparta's erstwhile allies and Argos had assembled the most dangerous coalition army to go into the field against Sparta in her history. Worse, this army took the field in the Peloponnese and just to the north of Laconia. For Sparta this battle was do or die. A loss in the field at Mantiniea will have laid open the direct route into Laconia for a victorious army.

If the Spartans at Mantinea numbered some 3,072, this would likely be not far off the total of the homoioi poulation of the time. Given the nature of the very real crisis, that is not surprising.
Thukidides an Athnenian calls the Mora of 500 men lochos (company)
Each unit had 512 hoplites - not 512 Omoioi but acombination of Omoioi and Perioikoi.

Xenophon in Leftkta described the 4 morae of Homioi as a separate unit.

Kind regards
Quote:A loss in the field at Mantiniea will have laid open the direct route into Laconia for a victorious army

I would only add that the Spartans could very well have lost this battle if the 1,000 elite Argives had fallen upon their left flank instead of pursuing the men opposite them whom they had defeated.
This battle was a complete mess. This was because there participated two of the largest Greek armies ever opposed till then in a battlefield.The Spartans,for intance,were cought in their sleep when they saw the full allied army against them ready for battle. They had to change tactics while marching and it is more tha possible that no one knew what was happening in the center or in the flanks. Many of the oponents were found without any enemy against them to fight with. If the Argives had turned to fight,the result would be similar to the battle of Koroneia perhaps...
Khaire
Giannis
Actually at the time the Spartan were saved because compaired to their opponents had a more diciplined army.
Kind regards
But the fact remains. The bigger portion of Spartans did not fight a fair battle that day. Sure, in that situation,were they not so disciplined defeat was certain. But the whole right wing did not even come in contact with the enemy. It just weeled to the left,to save their defeated left wing. I find it a pity than is this Great battle we donn't have a line of Spartans and a line of Argives or Athenians fighting equally for the victory :lol: It was the only such oportunity in the whole war :lol:
Khaire
Giannis
Quote:If the Argives had turned to fight,the result would be similar to the battle of Koroneia perhaps...

I agree that the battle was a mess. I think they would have been worse off than the Thebans at Koronea though, for in that case it was as if they fought a second battle, with formed lines. If the Argives had wheeled they probably would have hit the Spartan center-left in the flank. Of course I am glad they didn't :wink:
Quite the shame the Spartans were not completely annihilated at this battle.
Quote:Quite the shame the Spartans were not completely annihilated at this battle.

Yea, so even more free Greeks could be forced to pay the Athenian empire's extortion or meet the fate of Melos.
At the time of this battle the Spartan army was a mix of Spartiate and Perioeci hoplites, fighting side by side. So my gess is that of te the 3500 hoplites maybe half of them were of the Spartiate class. If you add the sciritai, the total number is just over 4000 hoplites. This had to be a full muster.
In 479 the Spartan (or Laconian) hoplite force was 10.000. So the great Earthquake and third Messinian revolt must have been devastating for not only the Spartans but also for the Perioeci.
The Spartan Army was always a mix of Homioi and Periokoi.
and the truth is that only Epameinondas (much later) put in the field an army as diciplined as the Spartans.

Spartans got their victories through Stratagem and the did not liked prolonged fight and campaigns. They had an army to do that and they had terrorized everyone else into be fatalistic in being defeaten when phasing them.

In 669 B.C. in Hysiai the Argives by using their 5000 strong Sacred Battalion crushed them. Hardly surprising that they converted their society to produce
5000 Homioi (same number as the Argive Sacred Battalion) upon which the periokoi coulld be molded in an effective fighting force.

Kind regards
Quote:
Quote:Quite the shame the Spartans were not completely annihilated at this battle.

Yea, so even more free Greeks could be forced to pay the Athenian empire's extortion or meet the fate of Melos.

As if the Spartans were above this practice? :roll:
Oh come on! Don't start such a debate! Remember,one of the greatest wars in history started with those same arguements! It lasted 27 years Confusedhock: :lol:
However,I don't find logical that the spartan army fought as a mixture of Homioi and Perioikoi. This would mean that the tactical units were composed of both homioi and perioikoi,meaning that each enomotia would also be a mixture,and their trainig would have to be the same. This would mean that each unit composed only of perioikoi would be equal with one composed only of Spartans. It simply can't have been like that. What could have been the case is that Spartans may have been covered in their left flank or center with a whole diferent phalanx of perioikoi.Those would be equal with the rest Peloponnesian allies,like the Tegeans. The Spartan army never was described as a mixture of homoioi and perioikoi,fighting in the same phalanx. It was described as Spartans and allies,and the perioikoi,as free men,can be described as allies. They had to follow Spartans everywhere in battle? Yes. But so did the Tegeans and typically all the other allies of the Peloponnesian Leage.
Khairete
Giannis
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