Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
North British Warrior
#46
I agree. Few of these folks would have recognized Celt or German as meaningful categories. Family and local tribe is what would have mattered to them.
"Fugit irreparabile tempus" (Irrecoverable time glides away) Virgil

Ron Andrea
Reply
#47
Quote: do we know whether it was permanent tatooing or tempiorary painting?

Permanent, if Isidore of Seville (writing in the 6th C) is to be believed.

"they are marked with the stigma of various designs by means of iron needles dipped in ink".

Ink, you'll notice, not woad. You can't tattoo with woad. Not effectively anyway. It's incredibly astringent. It burns, leaving scarring but no pigment. Good for dealing with wounds, crap for tattooing.
"Medicus" Matt Bunker

[size=150:1m4mc8o1]WURSTWASSER![/size]
Reply
#48
Quote:
Alanus:2656vs7h Wrote:But true, the "average" man of the north probably considered himself a Celt,
Bet he didn't. I bet he'd never even heard of the word. I doubt very much that there was any sense of a 'national' rather than a tribal identity at all.

But what of perhaps a concept of belong to a wider group that we now refer to as Celts?

Druids were said to meet annualy in central Gaul, whilst their most prominenet site may have been that little island off north Wales. This could be argued as implying a group identy spanning the lands in between.

I recall a story where a Galatian noble was asked to intercede with regard to a problem in Gaul. This again can imply either a tribal tie or that they possessed a more global "celtic" view of themselves as inter-related.

In the Gallic war Vorcingetorix was given command of all tribal warriors and I find it incongruos that they did not identfy with each other as different from the Latin, Greek and Germanic peoples. Ceasars made a statmentr "All Gaul is divided into three parts, one of which the Belgae inhabit, the Aquitani another, those who in their own language are called Celts, in our Gauls, the third" If this is not just Julius muddling things up (which I accept is a possibilty) you have self identities wider than the tribe. These then banded together to fight JC ... the Germans did not join in (at least not on their side :roll: ), which may indicate a general identification as "Belgi-Celti-Aqui" as separate to both Germans and Romans.

As to an example from a tribal society look a the Iroquois Confederacy with members from 6 tribes.
Conal Moran

Do or do not, there is no try!
Yoda
Reply
#49
Another source about Pictish tattooes.

"Britain wrapped in the skin of a caledonian beast, her cheeks tattooed [...]."

"(the soldiers) tilted over the pale face of the dying Pict, to decipher the signs marked by iron."

Claudian, Panegeryc of Stilicho.


As for the question of identity, I agree that tribal identity would be the most important for them. From Patrick and Gildas we do know that they also view themselves as Britons and as cives.
But a celtic identity in the V-VIth centuries? I don't think so.
"O niurt Ambrois ri Frangc ocus Brethan Letha."
"By the strenght of Ambrosius, king of the Franks and the Armorican Bretons."
Lebor Bretnach, Irish manuscript of the Historia Brittonum.
[Image: 955d308995.jpg]
Agraes / Morcant map Conmail / Benjamin Franckaert
Reply
#50
Quote:But a celtic identity in the V-VIth centuries? I don't think so.

What do you mean by a Celtic identity?
Conal Moran

Do or do not, there is no try!
Yoda
Reply
#51
Quote:
Agraes:pzlw37jy Wrote:But a celtic identity in the V-VIth centuries? I don't think so.

What do you mean by a Celtic identity?

That a Briton would have thought of himself as a celt.
"O niurt Ambrois ri Frangc ocus Brethan Letha."
"By the strenght of Ambrosius, king of the Franks and the Armorican Bretons."
Lebor Bretnach, Irish manuscript of the Historia Brittonum.
[Image: 955d308995.jpg]
Agraes / Morcant map Conmail / Benjamin Franckaert
Reply
#52
Paradoxically, I suspect there was a growing sense of "Celtic-ness" as the Britons "Roman-ness" faded. It was the Saxons, after all, who named the Welsh, Welseh. They (the Welsh) had a different name for themselves. Besides, by that time their tribal identitites --mixed with the various "Irish" and northern infusions--were asserting themselves again.

Iron needles? Ouch. I've read that woad somewhat hallucinagenic, maybe they used that--despite it's lack of permenancy--to take their mind of the pain. :roll: (That was a joke; not a serious suggest. Tongue )
"Fugit irreparabile tempus" (Irrecoverable time glides away) Virgil

Ron Andrea
Reply
#53
I thank Conal, Agraes, Caesar, and that Galatian noble for the vote of confidence. Big Grin

"National identity" was never mentioned. And Celts had no national identity-- the very reason they lost at Alesia. But they did have cultural identity. Societies had a sense of structure, elements that gave them unification. Whether or not "the man from the north" pricked himself with ink or slathered himself with woad, the act in itself was a demonstration of this cultural unity. And it wasn't Roman.

People today still have the same sense of identity; and it's cultural as much as blood-tied. It extends back to a basic tribal root. The Goths were not all Germans, but they were all Goths in their Gothic ethnos: the same with the Huns. Recognition of cultural identity can be seen in the Briton's referring to themselves as extending from Brutus, certainly not by family blood. They also considered themselves descendants of "Alanus" (no particular family relation of mine), the "first man in Europe." Likewise, the Massagetae/Alans proclaimed "Alanus" as their progenitor. In this case we have two huge societies linked to the same cultural foundation. The man in the north knew exactly who he was, and he knew it through a primordial oral tradition. :wink:
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Reply
#54
True, true.
"Fugit irreparabile tempus" (Irrecoverable time glides away) Virgil

Ron Andrea
Reply
#55
Quote:I thank Conal, Agraes, Caesar, and that Galatian noble for the vote of confidence. Big Grin

"National identity" was never mentioned. And Celts had no national identity-- the very reason they lost at Alesia. But they did have cultural identity. Societies had a sense of structure, elements that gave them unification. Whether or not "the man from the north" pricked himself with ink or slathered himself with woad, the act in itself was a demonstration of this cultural unity. And it wasn't Roman.

very true.loyalty was to a particular clan or leader.
alesia-and the same is true here in britain.
mark avons
Reply
#56
Quote:But what of perhaps a concept of belong to a wider group that we now refer to as Celts?

Druids were said to meet annualy in central Gaul, whilst their most prominenet site may have been that little island off north Wales. This could be argued as implying a group identy spanning the lands in between.
And Catholic Bishops go to conferences in Rome every year.
That's just evidence of a pan-national religious identity, not a national one.
"Medicus" Matt Bunker

[size=150:1m4mc8o1]WURSTWASSER![/size]
Reply
#57
Exactly.
The "man in the north," at least the element with Cunedda, moved south. And by the time the Saxons identified them as "weals" (Welsh), meaning foreigners (to their own Saxon culture), these Celts were calling themselves "Cymry." That term had a specific meaning, perhaps like "the people, as in "people with a comon identity." Where the Picts fit into this, I'm not sure. But historians claim the Picts were not aborigonals, yet rather an older group of Celtic people who arrived in some time unbeknownst. Yet in both groups we find tribal identity. Smile
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Reply
#58
Quote:And Catholic Bishops go to conferences in Rome every year.
That's just evidence of a pan-national religious identity, not a national one.

It is still a statement of an overiding cultural same-ness amoungst followers in various countries ... catholic 1st Irish 2nd. John Moran emigrates to US ... he is still catholic 1st American 2nd.

If the Druids were as integral to European iron age society as is purported then you have a similar pan-european same-ness. What I am getting at is that I dont subscribe to the chief 1st, then tribe ... over a pan-tribal conferderate identity based on a wider cultural identity. The chief being pre-eminent is something commented on in a Germanic context. This may not be the Celtic model.

I can't find the reference at the moment but I belive there is some evidence that in pre-Roman times "Celtic" "chiefs" were more or less elected based on a support base and with a limited tenure, and without any ownership of the land, which belonged to the tribe. They would be expected to bow out at the end of their term. There may have been a residual of this from Irish & north of the wall Tribes as you still had these guys retiring to religeous studies in the time period we are looking at. It is obviously a crossover point as some Tryants were seen to devide their Kingdoms amoungst their sons.
Conal Moran

Do or do not, there is no try!
Yoda
Reply
#59
Alan wrote, And by the time the Saxons identified them as "weals" (Welsh), meaning foreigners (to their own Saxon culture), these Celts were calling themselves "Cymry." That term had a specific meaning, perhaps like "the people, as in "people with a comon identity."

Was that just the Celts of Britain who identified themselves as Cymry, or Celts throughout Europe?

(I apologize for not having figured out how to do the pretty block quoting of previous material.)
"Fugit irreparabile tempus" (Irrecoverable time glides away) Virgil

Ron Andrea
Reply
#60
Quote:And by the time the Saxons identified them as "weals" (Welsh), meaning foreigners (to their own Saxon culture), these Celts were calling themselves "Cymry."

Well, some of them were...possibly...
Yes, it's used in Y Gododdin but the only copy we've got of that is from the 13th century and half of it is written in Middle Welsh. I don't doubt that the poem is an ancient one, perhaps even written within living memory of the battle, but what's come down to us is a (for want of a better word) translation.

Until the 12th century, the word 'Brythoniaid' is just as (if not more) common than Cymry. And Combrogi may still be in use as it's a Brythonic word rather than a welsh one.

Do you think we're allowed to keep going with all this early medieval stuff here? Won't the guys with little swords and toothbrushes on their helmets come to throw us out? :wink:
"Medicus" Matt Bunker

[size=150:1m4mc8o1]WURSTWASSER![/size]
Reply


Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  North British Horses Nathan Ross 24 2,348 11-09-2012, 10:20 PM
Last Post: PhilusEstilius

Forum Jump: