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Pugio Database Structure
#1
Hello,

before the Pugio Database gets started in earnest I thought it might be good to ask for the opinions of all you interested and most probably more knowledgeable what structure such a database should best take. By dating? Type? if so, according to what system/classification? Anything else you can think of?

TIA for all your contributions!
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#2
The Obbmann classification seems to work well.

Crispvs will give you all the details you'll need (and probably more that you won't knowing Crispvs)!
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#3
Well, Crispvs... You have something to live up to now! Big Grin
Greets!

Jasper Oorthuys
Webmaster & Editor, Ancient Warfare magazine
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#4
Quote:The Obbmann classification seems to work well.

That's what I was thinking of as well, especially as I have the book you are talking of I guess: Obmann, Jürgen. Studien zu römischen Dolchscheiden des 1. Jahrhunderts n.Chr.. Archäologische Zeugnisse und bildliche Überlieferung. Rahden/Westf., 2000.
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#5
Hi,
just wanted to say, that (like with the helmet database) not everybody has access to publications, so somebody should write an article for RA.com, where the main points of the chosen classification system (Obbmanns?) would be written out for those, who simply don't know it.
Thanks.
Greetings
Alexandr
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#6
Quote:where the main points of the chosen classification system (Obbmanns?) would be written out for those, who simply don't know it.
Thanks.


Seconded! Big Grin
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#7
We have a motion and a second.

All in favor, raise your right hand.
All opposed are out of order. Next item --
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#8
I don't think it needs voting, the need for such an article is obvious. Who's going to write it is a more pertinent question. Candidates may submit their article along with a resume of no more than 1 page A4 (297*210mm) in triplicate to...
Greets!

Jasper Oorthuys
Webmaster & Editor, Ancient Warfare magazine
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#9
What we want to have so far:

-classification system = Obmanns

-article/introduction on main points of the chosen classification system

what else do we need?

- picture gallery (obviously :-) ) - like the helmet database showcase)
- field for description
- field for bibliographical reference
- field for measurements & weight
- field for info on where the item is kept
- seperate list of pugio general interest literature

hm, all I can think of at the moment, anything to add?
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#10
ah, yes:

- classification system = Obmanns
- article/introduction on main points of the chosen classification system
- picture gallery (obviously Smile - like the helmet database showcase)
- field for description
- field for bibliographical reference
- field for measurements & weight
- field for info on where the item is kept
- seperate list of pugio general interest literature


- subforum for general discussion once this actually starts (very very pretty please, Jasper ;-) ) )
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#11
Sorry to have come to this so late, and thanks to Frater Peronis for alerting me to its presence.

I agree that an article is needed, another reason being that not everone can read German. I too, of course, own a copy of Obmann 2000 but the only page I can read with full understanding is the summary, which is in English. Otherwise I muddle through with my schoolboy German and a dictionary, meaning that I am still somewhat ignorant of the full reality of Obmann's system of classification.

In general, as will probably have been noticed by many already, I follow Scott's classifications, but I often feel that these need to be updated somewhat, in particular his typology of decoration, which is something of a work of art but divides decoration into rather too many catagories for my liking. I think that a good explanation of Obmann's classification system in English is essential, but I would also be inclined to include an article on Scott's system of classification to cover the bases so to speak.
Having written expositions of the two attempts to classify pugiones, the points of the chosen system for the database, as stated by Alexandr K, should then be stated in their own article, which can then refer to both other articles. Of course, if Obmann's system perfectly fits the bill that would be one less article to write.

If I was consulting a resourse on daggers, I would want to be able to check the following things: type of item (blade, sheath, handle or combination of two or more of these), classified type, shape, size, construction materials, methods of construction, findspot, current whereabouts, likely period of use, date of deposition, type of decoration, material used in decoration, possible reconstructions, photograhs, x-rays, good line drawings and information on other items found with it.

I would be inclined therefore, to try to include as many of these details as would be possible for each entry on a pugio, with the facility to add more detail as more became available.

As to publications, some of the museums I have written to recently have been rather unhelpful when it came to providing any information and simply referred me to already published material which in some cases fell far short of the level of information they could have provided. Certain museums were very helpful however, and it might be that somede might be persuaded to allow their x-rays and copyrited drawings to be featured.

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
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#12
Martin,

Sorry, we seem to have 'crossed in the post'.

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
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#13
Quote:I agree that an article is needed, another reason being that not everone can read German. I too, of course, own a copy of Obmann 2000 but the only page I can read with full understanding is the summary, which is in English. Otherwise I muddle through with my schoolboy German and a dictionary, meaning that I am still somewhat ignorant of the full reality of Obmann's system of classification.

I'll try and take care of this. However, as can be seen from the title, i.e. it being restricted to the 1st cent., I have my doubts as to whether this will be sufficient for an overall classification

Quote:In general, as will probably have been noticed by many already, I follow Scott's classifications,

Could you give me a reference here, please? I'll try and find and read it ...

Quote:If I was consulting a resourse on daggers, I would want to be able to check the following things: type of item (blade, sheath, handle or combination of two or more of these), classified type, shape, size, construction materials, methods of construction, findspot, current whereabouts, likely period of use, date of deposition, type of decoration, material used in decoration, possible reconstructions, photograhs, x-rays, good line drawings and information on other items found with it.

Very good points! some of those will easily be combined into one field I think. The showcase should best be divided into 2 sections (maybe 3?)

- original incl. X-rays and such
- line drawings
- reconstructions

Quote:As to publications, some of the museums I have written to recently have been rather unhelpful when it came to providing any information and simply referred me to already published material which in some cases fell far short of the level of information they could have provided. Certain museums were very helpful however, and it might be that somede might be persuaded to allow their x-rays and copyrited drawings to be featured.

If we manage to make agood job out of this, the database itself might even help to convince at least some of those museums unwilling to share their sources at the moment to reconsider. Never give up hope, they say :-) )
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#14
ah, another thought:

- classification system = Obmanns + Scott + ?
- article/introduction on main points of the chosen classification system
- picture gallery (obviously Smile - like the helmet database showcase)
- field for description
- field for bibliographical reference
- field for measurements & weight
- field for info on where the item is kept
- seperate list of pugio general interest literature
- subforum for general discussion once this actually starts (very very pretty please, Jasper Wink)



- articles and references on techniques employed
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#15
Martin,

I will dig out Scott 1985 and send you a copy. In the meantime, I will re-read it, along with his initial piece in Manning 1985 and one or two short pieces he has written since. After that I could probably write the basic article on Scott myself to save you the trouble.

I agree that Obmann and Scott do not cover much outside the first century AD. I think it would be useful and instructive to have sections on the Spanish daggers which preceded the pugio and the later types, which are themselves crying out for better recognition. Also first century frame type sheaths, something I am rather fond of, need to be more thoroughly explored. Scott largely ignores them and I get the impression that Obmann does not give them the attention they deserve (although it could be that my imperfect German is missing important points in his text, which I have to work through very slowly). On the basis of the limited evidence available, my private inclination is to split first century frame type sheaths into three subtypes, based on their construction, although, with such limited surviving evidence it would be somewhat farcical to try and draw many firm conclusions at this stage about them.


Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
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