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Hoplite Swords
#1
On another thread I noticed a sporadic conversation breaking out about the kopis and the debate as to whether it was more likely a Spanish or a Greek invention, and there was a thought that maybed the subject deserved its own thread... So, here it is. I was wondering if there might have been some Thracian influence in the evolution of the kopis/ falcata. I know that the Thracians were known for their forward-curved blades. I know other elements of Thracian influence began to especially creep into hoplite warfare too, but I can't pretend to be up on the latest archeology on Thracian swords. On another (tangential) note, what think ye all of the recent Osprey book on the Thracians? Is is a source I could rely on for the latest on the topic?
He who rules by fear, fears courage most!
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#2
I think that a member of the forum from Spain presented links shoing the earlier kopis/falcata vesrions in Spain. In the National Museum in Athens there are two specimens dated from the Persian wars. And in Pella and Dion the specimens are even later.
From the Bronze age the traditional Greek sword was straight.
Thracic clansmen influenced the coastline colonists from the Archaic era but they were also influenced by them.
The "sika" who looks very much like the sax knife is an original thracian weapon.
Kind regards
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#3
Oops, I guess I missed that post. Was that on the hoplite shield thread (I read back over it again, but didn't see it) or some other. Sorry if I'm missing the obvious; I'm only just newly "back" to the forum after a long absence. (And it is good to be back...)

Sincerely,

A.
He who rules by fear, fears courage most!
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#4
Quote:Oops, I guess I missed that post. Was that on the hoplite shield thread (I read back over it again, but didn't see it) or some other. Sorry if I'm missing the obvious; I'm only just newly "back" to the forum after a long absence. (And it is good to be back...)

Sincerely,

A.

No worries Aaron. it is the "Barbarian" military equipment studies"
The post was in the "Enemies and allies section" and it is full of good links.
Enjoy the festive season
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#5
A very useful and cientific web.

[url:14bf0p98]http://www.ffil.uam.es/equus/warmas/index.htm[/url]

Sorry, it's in spanish.
It's asesored by Fernando Quesada, highest specialist in the iberian weapons.
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#6
Thanks Cesar.
Can you please tell us what is the earliest kopis/flacata specimen that senior Quesada, is refering to.
Kind regards
Stefanos
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#7
5th to 1st century....I think it is for the Falcata....yes see this chart [url:z2tldveq]http://www.ffil.uam.es/equus/warmas/index.htm[/url]
then 650 to 550 for the straight Celtic sword...
regards
Arthes
Cristina
The Hoplite Association
[url:n2diviuq]http://www.hoplites.org[/url]
The enemy is less likely to get wind of an advance of cavalry, if the orders for march were passed from mouth to mouth rather than announced by voice of herald, or public notice. Xenophon
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#8
Quote:Thanks Cesar.
Can you please tell us what is the earliest kopis/flacata specimen that senior Quesada, is refering to.
Kind regards
Stefanos

Hmmm! I just read some stuf here in this section. just follow the a.C it means B.C. (Before Christ)

Seems that we Cesar & I wanted to post you the page of: Tipos de armas/ Type of weapons, but it goes to the index anyway.

I just quote the first falcata:
Quote:Falcata con empuñadura en forma de cabeza de ave rapaz. (de Almedinilla, Córdoba).
Arma característica de los Iberos de la Alta Andalucía, Sureste y Levante meridional entre los siglos V y I a.C. Aparece en otras zonas en pequeño número. Procede de una espada similar del área itálica, que a su vez tuvo su origen en los Balcanes. No deriva pues de la kopis griega, que es una evolución paralela.

Seems they are date from V to I B.C. not earlier than that, but some of the the straight swords are from an even earlier period.

Proceed from a similar sword from the italic area, that at the same time had its origin in the Balkans. It doesnt' derive from the greek Kopis , wich is a parallel evolution.


http://www.ffil.uam.es/equus/warmas/index.htm
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Remarks by Philip on the Athenian Leaders:
Philip said that the Athenians were like the bust of Hermes: all mouth and dick.
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#9
Nice work, Gioi!
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#10
Thanks Gioi,
So far am I right to think that no version Greek or Spanish is older than the other?
Kind regards
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#11
Like another things in archaeology, is dificult to say if a thing is influenced by another or viceversa.

Quesada probably tend to make "hard sentences". He knows perfectly all the weaponry of antiquity, but with tha actual evidence is very dificult to make such aseverations. I think so...
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