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Padded Armour
Well, as far as I recall, I first read of the idea in the Osprey book (I know, I know) 'The Swiss at War 1300-1500'. As I have never specialised in that period I never looked any further into the idea or checked on the source of the information.

Crispvs
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Does this work for you ? http://s896.photobucket.com/home/Conman10/index

My idea for this method came partly from seeing medieval reenactor's gambesons and partly from the pictures of possible subarmalii in Graham Sumner's Roman Military Dress. Also the Arlon relief of the cavalrymen seem to show something similar to what I had in mind. While almost a millenia later, the byzantine army is thought to have used gambesons called kavadions made in a similar way with a silk facing and a raw cotton filling. I found this in the Osprey book Cry Byzantine Infantry man Eastern Roman Empirec.900-1204. More specifically the book states that this comes from a field manual written by the Emperor Nikeforos Fokas.
I cant say I have any evidence of straw as padding instead of anything else although I should mention that before this I had made a similar padded garment using the cotton wadding used as stuffing in pillows and duvets. I found that this was quite heavy (4 Kg) while my recent straw on is only about 1.8kg. I believe that this is due mainly to that the straw is a lot harder to compress due to it's rigid nature and therefore means one needs to stuff a padded garment like this with a greater ammount (weight wise) of raw wool/cotton wadding or other similar materials to acheive a similar effect. Considering that an infantryman would have to carry the thing all day it would be simple logic that they would choose the lightest material available which would also seem to be the most cost effective. However I understand that Roman logic does not always corespond with modern logic as seen by the byzantine equivalant above.
Conor Boyle

Legio XX VV (Legion ireland)
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Quote:Does this work for you ? http://s896.photobucket.com/home/Conman10/index
Without context the photo contributes little to the subject. I seriously doubt that this dates to the middle ages.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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Quote:I cant say I have any evidence of straw as padding instead of anything else although I should mention that before this I had made a similar padded garment using the cotton wadding used as stuffing in pillows and duvets. I found that this was quite heavy (4 Kg) while my recent straw on is only about 1.8kg.
What is the point of this? If the garment only serves as light padding to reduce chafing then there are plenty of alternatives that weigh even less and are far more comfortable. If it is to provide some additional protection then this straw proposal will not work.

Straw has been used as armour in the past - on some Pacific Islands for example. But it was made from heavily matted straw. Typical weights just for a breastplate are over 20 lbs. This is the only way that straw will offer any protection from spears or arrows. It is thick, heavy, uncomfortable, and cannot be layered with any other kind of armour.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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Phokas composition of warfare reads something like "cotton wadding covered by raw silk, as thick as can be sewn together"...I'm not sure how that reference can support stuffing. The more detailed Ordonnances de metiers de Paris of 1296/1311 spesifically mentions sheets of cotton wadding, folded over one another, quilted together and covered by sendal (lower quality silk textiles).

As Dan notes, the idea of textile armour is to actually function as armour. Anti-chafing measures are another thing entirely.
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Quote:What´s your sourse saying that a "Tröja" (Old norse for Armingcoat) is not equal too a Gambeson or subarmalis?
I would love to see a source dating to the viking period that uses this word. It would be very welcome.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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Old Norse is also medieval norse. The word is used earliest in the following old norse sources:

The Landslaw
The Hirdskraa
The City Law of Bergen
(all mid-to late 13th century, then it follows is, for example, the Flateyjarbók of the 14th, and a number of others)
It is used both to describe arming coats worn under maille and outer textile armour: "styrka vapntreiyu", "strengthened arming shirt".

Other words (Pannzara, Thofastakki) describing textile armour appear in a number of sources (King's Mirror, Sturlunga Saga) dating from the early 12th century and onwards.
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Quote:Without context the photo contributes little to the subject. I seriously doubt that this dates to the middle ages.
I only posted this up as a picture of what I had made as I had promised in my first post. It was not intended to further the discussion in any way.

The garment I made and am advancing is only intended for use under other armours(mail in particular) as I understand that the linen would tear easily enough from blows from most sharp weapons. It is only designed to provide a thick layer of padding under the mail in order to stop blows that dont penetrate breaking bones and the like, something the leather vest
many reenactors wear would not do so well. The reason I stuffed it as such was that the Arlon relief that I previously mentioned seems to show something which resembles what may be a stuffed garment. The same is also said for the illustrations of reliefs in the Roman military dress book by Graham Sumner which again may show stuffing in such a way as I have done so. I realise that none of this may act as proof of anything other than the possibility that they used it

For straw as padding material I see how you have more or less disproved the theory compared to other materials. I wont waste our collective time arguing over it when I have no evidence to back it up . I only really chose that as a stuffing material because A it was the only authentic material I had on hand and B because I was curious wether the theory that I quoted in my first post would be effective.
Conor Boyle

Legio XX VV (Legion ireland)
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about cotton wadding... I'm not sure what the Byzantine authors ment by that or how it was translated, but I tend to think of cotton in the 17th C England sense - a soft thick loosely woven WOOL material. or as wool batting or felt, loose, or perhaps even a silk batting or felt, as was reported to be in some mongol padded coats. (Considering Byzantium famous as a center of silk production and the known strenght of silk)

I seem to recall reading (10 years ago) about a test of arrow penetration against a thickness of raw silk wadding compared to (vegy) cotton wadding and no suprise silk did far better. I would suspect that wool would be somewhere in between but a lot beter than cotton.

'cuse the speculation.

-Rick
Rick Orli
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Quote:about cotton wadding... I'm not sure what the Byzantine authors ment by that or how it was translated, but I tend to think of cotton in the 17th C England sense - a soft thick loosely woven WOOL material. or as wool batting or felt, loose, or perhaps even a silk batting or felt, as was reported to be in some mongol padded coats. (Considering Byzantium famous as a center of silk production and the known strenght of silk)
Yep. We have no idea how the Byzantines made their padded armour. The sources are open to speculation and various interpretations. I don't think there are any physical extant examples. Any attempt to use Byzantine padded armour as a source for Roman padded armour is simply using speculation to justify further speculation.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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Quote:
Orlirva:23bxtb0p Wrote:about cotton wadding... I'm not sure what the Byzantine authors ment by that or how it was translated, but I tend to think of cotton in the 17th C England sense - a soft thick loosely woven WOOL material. or as wool batting or felt, loose, or perhaps even a silk batting or felt, as was reported to be in some mongol padded coats. (Considering Byzantium famous as a center of silk production and the known strenght of silk)
Yep. We have no idea how the Byzantines made their padded armour. The sources are open to speculation and various interpretations. I don't think there are any physical extant examples. Any attempt to use Byzantine padded armour as a source for Roman padded armour is simply using speculation to justify further speculation.

Ok Thanks for that, you learn something new every day.
Conor Boyle

Legio XX VV (Legion ireland)
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