Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
References to late Roman army???
#91
Evidence for equites legionis being divided into turmae:

XI 1526 is cited by Passerini (loc. Cit.) as attesting the rank of decurio legionis, whose existence might be taken as support for turmae. The inscription is lost, the only reference to it being by an antiquarian. It reads: Thaliae Cocliae l. Peregrino decurioni leg. XIII, decurioni Pisis, quaestori ad aerar. II, heredes. This does not make sense as it stands and the existence of this officer must therefore remain suspect.

…The engraving on a ring found at Baden, and presumably lost in the period 43 to 69 when XXI Rapax was stationed at Vindonissa and at the latest before the principate of Trajan when the legion disappeared, reads eq. leg. XXI Sexti t. It has been suggested that t. is an abbreviation for turmae. (VIII, 10024, 31. Cf. also Passerini, loc. Cit.)

From:

The organization of the legion: the first cohort and the equites legionis by David Breeze
Reply
#92
(05-17-2017, 12:38 PM)Julian de Vries Wrote: The organization of the legion: the first cohort and the equites legionis by David Breeze

Here.

Thanks, I hadn't read that paper before. We ought to mention that Breeze does not believe that the two bits of potential evidence you cited are proof of equites legionis being divided into turmae, or of decurions commanding them (he thinks neither text makes sense, and the readings are possibly mistaken).

However, I'm not so sure - 120 equites would divide neatly into four turmae of 30. Legionary horsemen could have remained on the rolls of the centuries into which they were originally enlisted, for administrative purposes (as Breeze suggests) and still operate in turmae, under the (temporary?) command of junior officers. If these officers existed, they might have been the optiones equitum suggested by VIII, 2568,18. Alternatively, they could (also, or at a later date?) have been called decurions, as Vegetius suggests - a decurion might have been about equal to an optio in pay and rank, perhaps.

On the other hand, the equites could have remained under the command of their own centurions - when the complete body of equites was detached from the legion, they could have been placed under the command of a supernumerary centurion or a tribune (unattested!), perhaps with a vexillarius equitum (attested) as standard bearer. One of the detachments of equites promoti mentioned in the Panopolis papyri was led by an ordinarius, I think.

One of Breeze's notes also mentions Tacitus Histories I.57 - Valens entering Cologne 'with the cavalry of his legions and auxiliaries' - so the equites of the legion could be detached and used as a single unit, together with the other cavalry, just as Arrian does with his equites cohortales. (This does not mean, however, that they were split up and allocated piecemeal to the turmae of the auxiliaries!)
Reply
#93
Nathan wrote:

Without further evidence we could not possibly say one way or the other.
 
Good I am glad you have admitted that.
 
Nathan wrote:
Or of different eras. Or one is right and the other wrong. Or both are mistaken. Or legions could be assembled in varying ways. So many options!
 
For me it is different eras. So I know not to mix one with the other.
 
Nathan wrote:
All I was doing was demonstrating that you can arrive at a very close figure without needing to add an auxiliary ala onto the legion strength.
 
In a single exercise that you have demonstrated, yes it is easy. The test is to then incorporate all the data from the principate to see how it holds up.
 
Nathan wrote:
Auxiliary units were 'allocated' to legions all the time, both in camp and on campaign. That does not mean that citizen legionaries were detached from the legion and added to non-citizen auxiliary turma, under the command of non-citizen decurions, to make up the number 40.
 
Well if you say so Nathan, then it must be true.
 
Nathan wrote:
As you claim not to believe in 40-man turmae anyway (see below) this entire debate is baffling.
 
You just want it to appear that way. As I have already stated, my belief is Hyginus has come to the view that a squadron had 40 men, and all I have done is shown how Hyginus could have arrived at that figure.
 
Nathan wrote:
You would also need to account for the 500 cavalry mentioned as accompanying 3000 infantry elsewhere in Josephus, and the other various figures too. If you cannot, then you cannot suggest the one figure of 600 as evidence for anything. That would indeed be 'cherry picking'!
 
I have include the account of 500 cavalry in the book as well as the 3,000 cavalry, Ch La XI n501, Hyginus’ extra horses, Josephus list of the army of Vespasian and Titus in Judea Arrian’s expedition against the Alani, Arrian’s Tactical Handbook, ILS records, the numbers given for the Roman cavalry (3,000) at Mons Graupius any other accounts.
 
Nathan wrote:
The text implies that the 10,000 veterans were separate from the legions, like the other units, not added to their strength.
 
Well if I gave you the shopping list to make a banana cake, the ingredients you by will be separate but making the cake becomes something different, does it?
 
Nathan wrote:
So no evidence here for '2 veteran cohorts', or for 12-cohort legions.
 
If you say so.
 
Nathan wrote:
So there is no need to use the number 40 at all in this calculation. It is a complete red herring.
 
Well if you say so.
 
Nathan wrote:
Evidently so!  
 
Well you are the one who broke the agreement. In all honestly Nathan, I have come to the conclusion long ago that is I woke up in the morning and said the sky was blue, you would wait to sunset and argue the sky was red.
 
Nathan wrote:
You've mentioned this before. The Perge document gives a complete official breakdown of a Roman military unit at a specific date, with only two missing digits.
 
From my understanding it mentions over 300 centurions, so I wonder how that comes into play?
 
Nathan wrote:
That is completely different to combining numbers from multiple sources, often potentially corrupt and from different eras and/or of unknown authorship, and trying to make detailed calculations using them.
 
No Nathan, you are wrong. Brueggeman is doing exactly what I am doing.
 
Nathan wrote:
You don't believe they existed, but Hyginus did, and Synesius gives proof of them?
 
And here again is your modus operandi. I was using Synesius as an example of how I can take information from anywhere and claim it to be evidence. You again, twist it to your own agenda. Well ^%$^% *&^$$  
 
Michael wrote:
I may not agree with everything (he has failed to notice the significance of Hyginus 16, for instance) but he certainly draws attention to the deficiencies in the text.
 
Ok, there are deficiencies in the text, but at least Gary is trying to find out why, instead of just dismissing it. He is investigating the data in the same manner as I would approach it. I have found that Hyginus has some very accurate data regarding unit spaces, and I have used Hyginus mathematical methodology and applied it to his camp data and have found the results illuminating. In his investigation, Gary has found different ratios for the pedes, and I have found this has come about due to Hyginus taking a subdivision of a unit, which includes the officers, and then uses this number to divide into the total number of men in the whole unit, which does not include the officers. And that is why the ratios change. Regardless of what some will say, I am not changing my opinion on that. It works. And also I have found that one number in Hyginus has had a zero added to it. And please don’t ask me how that came about as I was not there when it happened.
 
 
Reply
#94
(05-18-2017, 05:54 AM)Steven James Wrote: And also I have found that one number in Hyginus has had a zero added to it.
 
 

Can you identify that, please? I would like to look at it myself.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
#95
(05-18-2017, 05:54 AM)Steven James Wrote: Well if I gave you the shopping list to make a banana cake, the ingredients you by will be separate but making the cake becomes something different, does it?

Yes, but if I gave you a banana cake and asked you to detach the flour from it and put it one side, and then to detach the eggs from it and put them somewhere else, you would find that difficult. This is why military units are not like cake ingredients.

It sounds like you are trying to have your banana cake and eat it! (gah - sorry, couldn't resist that!) [Image: tongue.png]


(05-18-2017, 05:54 AM)Steven James Wrote: Well you are the one who broke the agreement.

I didn't know there was an agreement. If you'd prefer that certain people didn't comment on your posts then I would respect that, although posts like this one certainly appear to invite comments. And if so, you shouldn't take silence as automatic approval.


(05-18-2017, 05:54 AM)Steven James Wrote: From my understanding it mentions over 300 centurions

The 20 ordinarii are the 'centurions' (centuriones ordinarii, as we find in earlier inscriptions). See Milner's Vegetius, p.37 n.6.
Reply
#96
Nathan wrote:

It sounds like you are trying to have your banana cake and eat it! (gah - sorry, couldn't resist that!)
 
Now don’t give up your day job just yet. I have two banana trees in my backyard and both have produced bananas at the same time. Just too many to eat, so I have been giving them away left right and centre.
 
Nathan wrote:
And if so, you shouldn't take silence as automatic approval.
 
As far as I know, it is an academic proverb, so just following along. However, for such a large forum, there is only a handful of people that post on this forum, so unfortunately, no new input except from the usual suspects. So the forum is getting boring.
 
Nathan wrote:
The Perge document gives a complete official breakdown of a Roman military unit at a specific date, with only two missing digits. By replacing those missing digits by increments it is possible to work out the total size of the legion with some degree of accuracy. The minimum possible size is 1280 men, the most likely size 1680; it could well have been more than that.
 
That is completely different to combining numbers from multiple sources, often potentially corrupt and from different eras and/or of unknown authorship, and trying to make detailed calculations using them.
 
The 20 ordinarii are the 'centurions' (centuriones ordinarii, as we find in earlier inscriptions). See Milner's Vegetius, p.37 n.6.
 
How interesting. So following you, I am combining numbers from multiple sources, possibly some corrupt, of which you cannot prove, and from this I am making detailed calculations using them.
 
Well for the record, my Late Roman legion also has 20 centuriones ordinarii as per the Perge document given by you. I also have a detailed history of the centuriones ordinarii, explaining his function, when his office was introduced, his role on the battlefield, and which units he commanded.
 
However, you have not answered the question about the plus 300 centurions in the Perge document I have been told about. Does it actually list that many?
 
 
 
Reply
#97
(05-18-2017, 10:44 AM)Renatus Wrote:
(05-18-2017, 05:54 AM)Steven James Wrote: And also I have found that one number in Hyginus has had a zero added to it.
 
 

Can you identify that, please? I would like to look at it myself.

Can you help me on this?
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
#98
(05-23-2017, 01:45 AM)Steven James Wrote: you have not answered the question about the plus 300 centurions in the Perge document I have been told about. Does it actually list that many?

No, as I said, there are 20 centurions. You are probably getting the idea from this and following, which you might want to read again.
Reply
#99
The augustales and flaviales were honorable or honorary titles - which were given in an inflationary way to the soldiers of this unit. There are certainly other ranks behind these (e.g. file leaders etc.; which is of course debatable). This makes it difficult to evaluate this unit if one tries to explain the regiment according to clear, currently valid standards. However, this was not a contradiction to the Romans, as is often misinterpreted today.
The slabs of Perge, among other things, describe to a considerable extent just the functions within the regiment, but sure: Ranks and rank structures can also be seen here.

In their general structure the slabs place great emphasis on pay-grades. After the complaints of the soldiers, this was precisely the reason for the construction of the slabs.
This system of payment and grades was recently recognized and developed by Stefan Zehetner by considering the morning roll call of cohors XX Palmyrenorum, - of course regarding a much early time phase. He compares that system with the military Brevet-system and differs between the graded rank and the appointed rank.
XXX
(Stefan Zehetner, Der Signifer. Stellung und Aufgaben in der Kaiserzeitlichen Armee.
esp. p. 27; P. Dur. 82)

This system of earlier times is strikingly reminiscent to the unit of Perge.
There are so many indication, also allusions or hints clearly showing that the Legion was very probably not a legion when it was deployed. In the thread mentioned by Nathan I have already explained some issues. The next thing, not described there, is the number of beneficarii, which is matching the previously estimated number of them in auxiliary units. But the assumption that there were 300 centuriones is neither recognizable nor explainable.
Reply
Steven James said: The question is why the number 4? And this is what I like about this, it opens new doors. As Zosimus believes a single tagmata has 60 centuries, Zosimus has taken a tagmata of 600 men, which has an organisation consisting of 4 parts. This would mean each of the 4 parts has 150 men, and when combined, has two parts of 300 men, and I find it interesting that our Christian martyr stories also reproduce these numbers, as does Ammianius references to 300 men.

Could there be a link between Cedrenus cavalry tagma and the equites promoti?

P.Grenf. II, 74.  “ἱππεὺς προμωτῶν σεκούντων (sekounton - secundum) ἀπὸ λεγεῶνος β Τραϊανῆς”

P.Col.7.188, “ οὐιξιλατίωνος ἱππέων προ̣µώτων λεγίω̣ν̣[ος] β Τραια̣ν̣ῆ̣ς̣”

It seems that every legion had attached to them two units of equites promoti.

Perhaps a unit of equites promoti was divided into two vexillations of 150 men each?
Reply
More references for the Late Roman Army:

From: The fragmentary classicizing historians of the later Roman Empire ; R.C.Blockley, 1983
The History of Malchus
Fragment 20 (Exc. de Leg. Rom. 1)
 
Zeno sent Vivianus’ son, Adamantius, a patrician and ex-prefect of the city, upon whom he also conferred consular rank…
At this point Adamantius was at an impasse. Taking two hundred soldiers, he set out at nightfall through the deserted hills along a narrow, unused path, known to few and on that occasion traversed by horses for the first time, as it was claimed.
*
Zachariah of Mitylene, Syriac Chronicle (1899).  Book 7.

(Timeframe reign of Anastasius I 491 AD – 518 AD)

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/zachariah07.htm#14

But 14 Farzman alone, a warlike man, prospered in battle several times; and he was celebrated and dreaded amongst the Persians, and his very name terrified them, and his exploits wasted and weakened them; and they proved themselves to be cowards in his presence, and fell before him. This man at last came to Amida with five hundred horsemen, and he watched the Persians who went out to the villages, and he killed some of them, and he took the animals which they had with them, and also their horses.

Now a certain crafty fellow, Gadono by name, of the town of Akhorè, whom I myself know, introduced himself to him, and made a compact with him, that he would beguile and bring out to him, on some pretext, Glon, the Persian general, and three or four hundred horsemen. And because this aforesaid Gadono was a hunter of wild animals, and partridge, and fish, he used to go in freely to Glon, carrying in his hands a |162 present of game for him; and he ate bread in his presence, and received from him out of the property of the city what was equal in value to the game.

And at last he told him that there were about one hundred Romans and five hundred horses nearly seven miles away from the city, at a place called 'Afotho Ro''en; and as a friend he advised him to go out and take possession of the beasts, to kill the Romans, and make a name for himself.

Zachariah of Mitylene, Syriac Chronicle (1899).  Book 9.

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/zachariah09.htm

The Romans, when Belisarius was duke, in the year five,20 having been prevented from building Thannuris on the frontier, wished to make a city at Melebasa; wherefore Gadar the Kadisene was sent with an army by Kawad; and he prevented the Romans from effecting their purpose, and put them to flight in a battle which he fought with them on the hill of Melebasa. And he was high in the confidence of Kawad, |227 and had been stationed with an army to guard the frontier eastwards from Melebasa in the country of Arzanene as far as Martyropolis. And this man uttered many boasts and vain words against the Romans, and blasphemed like Rab Shaken, who was sent by Sennacherib. And he brought about seven hundred armed cavalry, and some infantry, who accompanied them for the sake of amassing plunder; and they crossed the Tigris into the district of Attachae in the territory of Amida. And Bessa was duke in Martyropolis; and it was summer time in this year nine.21 And with Gadar was Izdegerd, the nephew 22 of the Ptekasha,23 who, as a neighbour, knew the region of Attachae. And when Eessa heard of it he went out against him with about five hundred horsemen from Martyropolis, which was about four (?) 24 stades distant. And he met him at Beth Helte and routed his army on the Tigris, and killed Gadar, and took Izdegerd prisoner and brought him to Martyropolis. This man after the peace, which was made in the year ten,25 was given in exchange for Domitziolus, who returned from Persia. But Bessa the duke after routing Gadar and the Persian cavalry, who were guarding the frontier of Arzanene, entered the country and did much damage there; and he carried off captives and brought them to Martyropolis.

For a certain Sunica, a general, who was a Hun, and, having taken refuge with the Romans, had been baptized, and Simuth (?),16 a Roman tribune, and their armour-bearers with twenty men each drove the whole Persian army away from the city several times, passing boldly and vigorously from one part of the field to another, and cutting men down right and left with the lance.

*

It seems for the period 450-525 AD there are three unit sizes for the roman cavalry: 200 cavalry, 500 cavalry and about 500 cavalry.
Reply
(09-09-2017, 02:46 PM)Julian de Vries Wrote: It seems for the period 450-525 AD there are three unit sizes for the roman cavalry: 200 cavalry, 500 cavalry and about 500 cavalry.

That seems a reasonable assumption, although it is rather contradicted by the note in the Strategikon (from a slightly later date) that the tagma should not contain less than two hundred men or more than four hundred." (Strat, 1.4)

However, it's not clear from these excerpts whether the numbers given relate to a full unit, a detachment of a larger unit, or a combination of smaller units. I suspect that in the cases in later Roman sources where a figure is given - usually several hundred men - then these are either detachments or multiple units. Otherwise, why would the writer not call the whole body a tagma or arithmos or something similar? In the case of Ammianus and his bodies of 200 or 300 men, at least, we know that these have been detached from a larger unit. The same thing might be happening in these passages.
Reply
The Acts of the Three Martyrs of Edessa, under Diocletian

https://archive.org/stream/dieaktendered...h/soldaten

page 52-53

55. Und er befahl dem Spekulator, dass er zehn Soldaten mit sich nähme und hinausginge (und) sie hinausführe draußen vor die Stadt an einen fernen Platz wegen der Bevölkerung der Stadt, damit nicht geschähe eine Betrübnis um ihretwillen jemandem in der Stadt.
56. Und als empfangen hatte der Spekulator den Befehl des Hegemon, nahm er mit sich zehn Soldaten und ging hin, indem er sie anführte.

55. And he commanded the speculator to take ten soldiers with him, and go forth out of the city into a distant place because of the inhabitants of the city, lest there be any sorrow for their sake in the city.
56. And when the speculator had received the command of the Hegemon, he took with him ten soldiers, and went by leading them.
Reply
LE SYNAXAIRE ARMENIEN

Martyre des saints Solochon, Pamphamir, Pamphylon et Hyacinthe.
L'empereur impie Maxiniien envoja le chef militaire Cambanus avec
trois mille quatre cents soldats ä la ville de Chalcedoine, en lui recomman-
dant d'immoler aux idoles avec ses troupes. Nombreux furent ceux qui se
plierent a ses ordres, excepte trois soldats egyptiens qui avaient reconnu et
cru a la vraie foi du Christ : Solochon, Pamphamir et Pamphalon ' ; ceux-ci
n'y consentirent point.

(Google Translate)

Martyrdom of Saints Solochon, Pamphamir, Pamphylon and Hyacinthe.
The impious Maximian emperor sent the military leader Cambanus
three thousand four hundred soldiers to the town of Chalcedoine, recommending to him
immolate to idols with his troops. Many people
excepting three Egyptian soldiers who had recognized and
believed to have the true faith of Christ: Solochon, Pamphamir and Pamphalon; these
did not consent.

Page 469

https://archive.org/stream/patrologiaori...8/mode/2up
*
Now this is very interesting, 3400 soldiers. Normally for this timeframe army numbers are rounded to 3000 or 5000 soldiers, but here it seems to be an unrounded number. However:

According to the Acta Sanctorom there are only 3000 (τρισχιλίων ; aliis tribus millibus militum) soldiers.

https://www.heiligenlexikon.de/ActaSanct...7.Mai.html

More information:

https://oca.org/saints/lives/2011/05/17/...-chalcedon

There is also an internet page telling: the tribune Campanus, with a thousand other soldiers. but I could not discover the primary source for it.

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2017/05/...ochon.html
*
So what is the solution 3000 or 3400 soldiers? Could the Armenian version be the unrounded number of the Greek/Latin version?
Reply
It's still a martyrium. As I explained to Steven earlier, such sources are not primarily concerned with a correct number of soldiers, and were often written much later. Although interesting of course, the number mentioned (without even the number of units) won't be adding to a discussion about troop numbers.
_________________________________
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR: Forum rules
FECTIO Late Roman Society
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
Reply


Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Late Roman Army - seniores and iuniores Robert Vermaat 36 9,976 10-21-2017, 02:30 PM
Last Post: Steven James
  Late Roman Army Grade/Rank List under Anastasius Longovicium 172 32,107 07-09-2017, 06:59 PM
Last Post: Nathan Ross
  Late Roman Army Questions Legate 22 6,520 12-01-2015, 05:10 PM
Last Post: Flavivs Aetivs

Forum Jump: