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Linothorax construction with alternative fabric
#16
Gluing mummy and making armors are two different things... if anything, glued linen strips on the mummy are not needed to resist human sweat, or atmospheric conditions on everyday basis. Gluing linen together also makes such material easily damaged by mechanical stress, which would be present if such material was used for armor. Amount of glue needed to stitch multiple layers of linen together would make final material much heavier than it would be if sawing was used..

there are just way too many NAY's for a glued linen armor theory...
Jaroslav Jakubov
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#17
On another a forum we have been discussing this new work as it uses linen boiled/soaked in hot water and glue as a control item to compare to various types of hide armor.

https://www.sidestone.com/books/why-leather

Note the online book is free to read.

It is not clear if the authors glue the glue impregnated linen layers together or stitched them. What is interesting is that they conclude linen impregnated with glue has noticeable defensive properties even with just a few layers.

These testers have no dog in this fight either so they are neutral. 

Note how ineffective some of the leather types are as well.

Of course this does not prove that the linothorax as we think it was linen and some form of glue binding, only that that the concept works, and the glue makes it better. We know the Athenian general Iphicrates (c. 418 BC – c. 353 BC) provided linen corslets of some sort to his troops to make them more mobile (Nepos, Iphicrates  1.3-4). Some say it was more likely woven rather than glued. Interestingly Iphicrates was the said to be the son of a shoe maker and as such knew well the properties of leather, and then chose linen for his troops.

Regarding glued linen mummy and theater masks, I often use these as an example that such a technology (glue and linen) was well known and widespread in the Ancient Eastern Mediterranean.

As far as I know this new leather study with glued linen tested as well is the latest work touching on the subject. I don't want to re-discuss the linen vs leather topic only to make this new study available.
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#18
inefectivity of leather vs thrusts is very well known, its not ideal thing to have if enemy is using thrusting weapons... If I remember right, you can pierce through boiled leather with just 30 joules of energy (Dr Alan Williams tests) so in the times where everybody was using thrusting spears, I would really not want to use a leather (or more likely rawhide) breastplate...
Jaroslav Jakubov
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#19
Did you read the section on leather armor? What do you think of their conclusions and methodology?
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#20
ill check it when at home, cant open scribd on my work pc..
Jaroslav Jakubov
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#21
ok, read it through, and must say its close to what Dr Williams reported in his book "Knight and the Blasting Furnace", but his work was more detailed, and he used multiple striking objects simulating arrow, sword blade, spear and axe.. also i think it was Dan who already mentioned that applying wax to the leather wont make it better but exactly opposite because it will lubricate the projectile on its way in..
Jaroslav Jakubov
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#22
The only examples of glued leather armour come from up around the Arctic circle where the humidity level is zero. The rest of the world sewed the leather layers together just like textile armour. Cuirbouili armour was never made using wax. Apart from the lubrication effect, medieval cuirbouilli was frequently decorated with paint, gilt and gesso; it is impossible to apply these finishes to wax impregnated leather. The best work on this subject was done by Dobson and summarised in his "tough as old boots" paper.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#23
(08-11-2016, 10:17 PM)Dan Howard Wrote: The only examples of glued leather armour come from up around the Arctic circle where the humidity level is zero. The rest of the world sewed the leather layers together just like textile armour. Cuirbouili armour was never made using wax. Apart from the lubrication effect, medieval cuirbouilli was frequently decorated with paint, gilt and gesso; it is impossible to apply these finishes to wax impregnated leather. The best work on this subject was done by Dobson and summarised in his "tough as old boots" paper.

Have any of you read An Invincible Beast by Christopher Matthew? It's about the Macedonian phalanx and has a section about what armor may have been worn. According to Cornelius Nepos, Iphicrates "changed the character of their breastplates; giving them linen instead of bronze." in 374 BCE.
Xenophon says that the Armenians had linen armor that reached their groin, which means they must be flexible.
Aelian also describes an armor known as an "argilos" or "white clay" that Iphicrates' reformed troops used. Assuming that the armor was made from linen, it could be white washed to make it more rigid, water proof, and more paintable. One interesting thing is that Aelian says that the argilos is "similar to Macedonian armor only lighter."
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#24
Hello Braden,
I am going to let the proverbial cat out of the bag a bit!  I am currently working on a twined linen armour, actually using thick hemp cords, covered in linen and then whitewashed with white casein / linseed emulsion and (whitening) to make it water resistant. It is a tube and yoke armour with ptyreges, and I believe this armour will be an accurate reconstruction of the linen armour used by the Greeks.  I am also slowly working on a twined Egyptian linen armour.  The Greek linen armour is about halfway done and should exactly resemble some depictions.  The armour will be double-breasted, having two layers in the front.  It is a tremendous amount of work, but it should be a first, and hopefully will answer many questions...  Stay tuned. Cool  I'll post some teaser pics pretty soon.
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#25
Quote:Xenophon says that the Armenians had linen armor that reached their groin, which means they must be flexible.
Not really. Some armour designs incorporated a rigid panel hanging off the bottom of the cuirass to cover the lower stomach and groin. In Greek it was called a 'mitra'. Some designs incorporated a flexible section covering the stomach and groin but the rest of the cuirass was rigid. In English these were usually called 'faulds'.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#26
Okay, a couple of pics:
[img]<a href=[/img][Image: VjjpMz0.jpg]" />
[img]<a href=[/img][Image: YWMJgkY.jpg]" /> This is when I soaked the section to shrink the weave.  The second third of the armour will be attached to allow it to cover the whole torso.  I forgot that it isn't double-breasted, but the front will be two thicknesses of twining --where there are no scales.  I am closely basing it on these depictions:
[Image: tumblr_inline_o4w5eaJGK41r8c6s8_500.jpg]

[Image: Alexander_the_Great_mosaic.jpg]And:
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#27
(02-25-2017, 06:46 AM)Dan Howard Wrote:
Quote:Xenophon says that the Armenians had linen armor that reached their groin, which means they must be flexible.
Not really. Some armour designs incorporated a rigid panel hanging off the bottom of the cuirass to cover the lower stomach and groin. In Greek it was called a 'mitra'. Some designs incorporated a flexible section covering the stomach and groin but the rest of the cuirass was rigid. In English these were usually called 'faulds'.

He also said that the pturges were plaited. It sounds like they extended past the groin. What's you take on the Glauberg statue? It's an early La Tene statue in southern Germany that seems to be wearing a tube and yolk cuirass that is tight fitting to the body with very short pturges.
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#28
Quote:He also said that the pturges were plaited

Could be a dodgy translation. What does the original Greek say?

Quote:What's you take on the Glauberg statue?

It is too crude to interpret. Nothing in that statue is proportional - the legs are too fat, the arms are too thin, the head is to small, the shield is too small, the pteruges are too short. The only thing that can be said is that it is likely some kind of tube-and-yoke armour.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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