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Scale Armor & Accuracy
#16
Hopefully someone can cure my ignorance. If there was more over-lap, wouldn't that offer more protection? It just makes sense to me that the Romans (as practical as they were) would have tried to make their squamata as well protected as possible (especially for centurions who, evidently, wore custom armor and ccould certainly afford it). I'm having trouble seeing why the Romans would want extremely flexible armor, as they weren't exactly doing gymnastics in battle.

On a side note: Was squamata more effective than hamata?

Regards,
Tyler
Tyler

Undergrad student majoring in Social Studies Education with a specialty in world history.

"conare levissimus videri, hostes enimfortasse instrumentis indigeant"
(Try to look unimportant-the enemy might be low on ammunition).
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#17
Well, logic would dictate you overlapped on a 50/50 basis, to give good protection against penetration.
But, apparently not....
You could expalin it as the officers requiring a lighter armour, especially when on foot, as they may be required to hasten about the lines moreso than the foot soldier, who will have to stand and fight....but it seems to be the comon thought that even squadies wore scale....
So, your guess is as good as any! Wink
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#18
Quote:Which images are of the Carpow finds? I seem to come to a web block when ever I search for info on this location?

Ya there is a serious webblock on info on that find. The only images I have are the ones below. Couple low res color images, and the sketches from a paper on the finds. That paper also has a detailed diagram of the edge stitching.


[attachment=5372]1346.jpg[/attachment]


[attachment=5373]Carpowarmour.jpg[/attachment]


[attachment=5374]Examplewithwool.jpg[/attachment]

Here is a close up diagram of the stitch showing how it was interwoven. You simply cut a slit into the top leather throng to feed through the piece coming from the bottom. I had to make a test piece and try it out before I could get my head around it.

[attachment=5375]Stitchdiagram.jpg[/attachment]

Quote:I am curious about that leather edge binding. I can't quite make out how it was done. Has anyone done a reconstruction that makes it clear?

As a matter of fact I do. I'm just nearing completion on my scale armor that I'm making with this type of edging. Here are a couple images(all be it not great ones) of the front, side and back to show how it looks. It is actually VERY strong, and makes the armor quite stiff on the edges, having a stabilizing effect on the scales in the middle of the armor. It is also still flexible to allow for the curve at the shoulders. I'll post images of the whole armor once it is done.

[attachment=5376]Stich-1.JPG[/attachment]

[attachment=5377]Stich-2.JPG[/attachment]

[attachment=5378]Stich-3.JPG[/attachment]


Quote:Hopefully someone can cure my ignorance. If there was more over-lap, wouldn't that offer more protection?

There is overlap. Enough to cover the other scales attachment hole, but not enough to cover the side links. As you'll notice, most of the scales have the side links quite far down the side of the scale, so as to maximize the overlap. So there is still a doubling of the scales, which protects the attachment area. The end result is a lighter, cheaper/quicker to make armor, that is still as protective.


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Markus Aurelius Montanvs
What we do in life Echoes in Eternity

Roman Artifacts
[Image: websitepic.jpg]
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#19
Scales from Corbridge (top picture) and Caerleon (Sorry about the fuzzy Corbridge photograph; the reflection off the glass was terrible!)

EDIT: Too many Fatal Errors trying to load them; sorry!
Moi Watson

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
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#20
Yeah, I cannot see them either. But then, it seems there is an issue with viewing images on the site today....
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#21
Well, some threads they're easy (the images I put on the Bull Standard for example) and others are a PIA :| (the Quiz and this).

Life is too short to sit in front of a Fatal Error ;-)
Moi Watson

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
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#22
This is very interesting Markus.
Does the thong goes through the scales when you do the edging?
TiTvS Philippvs/Filip
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legioxi.be">www.legioxi.be
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#23
Quote:This is very interesting Markus.
Does the thong goes through the scales when you do the edging?

Yes it does. If you don't go through the scale, I find the armor looses the supporting properties of the edging.

The whole process is quite time consuming. One has to line up the edging, making sure that it there is a scale underneath. Punch a hole through everything, skip a hole (I usually put a piece of brass bar in the hole to hold everything in place, then make the second hole. The top thong goes into the second hole and is pulled taught. I took a flat knife like wood chisel tool to make a horizontal slit in the top leather thong in line with the hole underneath. Once that is done you feed the bottom thong through to the top. You repeat this process, constantly making two holes and feeding the top thong into the second one. At the corners you have to time it right with the holes so that the first hole lands right at the corner, and the second hole is after the 90 degree turn. That way you the stitch holds the corner in place.

You can see this strip of Dura-Europos original (likely the last row) where each scale has clearly been punched, and part of the thong is still visible with the horizontal slit/ stitch pattern showing.


[attachment=5384]Duras-Europos-Leatheredging-6.jpg[/attachment]


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Markus Aurelius Montanvs
What we do in life Echoes in Eternity

Roman Artifacts
[Image: websitepic.jpg]
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#24
Markus
first I want to thank you for sharing the Dura pics with us
I am interested myself in myking a squamata and I would have a question regarding those scales at Dura, actually 2:

do anyone knows if they were published (reference needeed)?
do you knoe how big they are?


---------
Gelu I
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#25
Quote:do anyone knows if they were published (reference needeed)?
do you knoe how big they are?
There's a limited discussion of these scales in Simon James 2004, The Excavations at Dura-Europos conducted by Yale University and the French Academy of Inscriptions and Letters 1928 to 1937: Final Report VII, The Arms and Armour and other Military Equipment. London: The British Museum Press, p120-139. There's some limited discussion of measurements and further (smaller, B&W) images. For some reason the last piece cited by Markus (1938.5999.1230) isn't included in that catalogue, as far as I can tell.

The problem highlighted there with using isolated lengths of scale (or individual scales) is that they didn't necessarily come from loricae. Dura finds included sections identified by James as being from cuisses (thigh armour) or horse armour, which may have had different design requirements compared to body armour. A lighter construction method would probably be preferred for house armour, for instance. The same could also be said for people though - most soldiers would rather be carrying less weight!
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#26
This is the link to the Yale University image database that I ended up digging up. Search Dura Europos or refine the search with scales. There are at least a hundred separately cataloged scale pieces. Some of them will provide you with measurements(although many dont). Although some of the scales (especially the iron ones) appear to be for horse armor, many are also small enough to clearly be for soldiers.

Yale Image database

As a rough guide however, the leather edging at Carpow was 30mm, then folded in half. The leather thong was between 6-8mm thick. I would guess that the Dura ones are again similar in size. That kind of scale reference should help you get an idea as to the side of the scale if there is no measurement.
Markus Aurelius Montanvs
What we do in life Echoes in Eternity

Roman Artifacts
[Image: websitepic.jpg]
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#27
Thanks Markus, this information came just in time.
I'm starting to make a neckguard for my helmet.
TiTvS Philippvs/Filip
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legioxi.be">www.legioxi.be
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#28
As a note as well, the Dura examples clearly seem to indicate the use of RAWHIDE strips to lace the leather edging on, and not leather. That being said the Carpow one seems to use leather, and some of the Dura fragment also seem to show a more leather looking lace. But those could simply be miss-identification as the leather/rawhide could be stained or preserved with some chemical that made it all one color.

Also interesting is that one scale shirt/armor piece had two layers for the backing. Linen/burlap, with a layer of leather, with a triangular decoration along the bottom edge. I've seen these example miss-identified as a subarmalis, however that can't be the case, since the one example still has iron scales attached and remnants of the same interwoven edge stitching.

[attachment=5401]Duras-Europos-leather1.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment=5402]Duras-Europos-leather2.jpg[/attachment]


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Markus Aurelius Montanvs
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Roman Artifacts
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#29
Quote:


You can see this strip of Dura-Europos original (likely the last row) where each scale has clearly been punched, and part of the thong is still visible with the horizontal slit/ stitch pattern showing.


[attachment=5384]Duras-Europos-Leatheredging-6.jpg[/attachment][/quote]

Strange, the wiring on this row is almost at the bottom of the scales
TiTvS Philippvs/Filip
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legioxi.be">www.legioxi.be
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#30
Why not the leather border is located in the lower side of the armour? I mean in the last picture. So the four holes were for sewing to the backing, and were placed at the top.
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