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Show here your Sarmatian warrior impression
#91
hi, Moi

When I got the armor, there was quite a space between the shoulder lamellar and the scale upper arm pieces, one of two weak spots. (the other area is around the armpits) I was thinking, "What about a rain of arrows? Sure enough, that's where one will hit me-- right in the upper arm. Then I might not make it to retirement, my chunk of land, my vet's diploma, my young and fantastically beautiful new Roman wife. I'll be mostly dead, not just partially dead!

So, I had a couple of lower end-pieces from the arms of some segmentata. I sewed them into the armor to cover the weak spot. I'll probably remove them, and try to make a hinged extension in lamellar. It's basically a "what if" project, but that darn Tacitus started it! Those Roman historians. What a bunch. 8-)
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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#92
Smile They flatter to deceive, don't they, Tacitus and his cronies.

I can understand the need to fill the gap on your arm so I will be interested where this takes you next.

It's an impressive impression - I'd certainly only take you on with my bow if I could gallop away again :wink:
Moi Watson

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
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#93
Your armour certainly looks interesting.

I can't speak to the actual plate size and hole layout, but the shoulders do not look right (and more importantly, do not look like they would articulate at all very well). An easier way to do it is do dish the leather backing for the scale upper arm defenses and have that protect the shoulder. Alternatively, you can weave your lamellar loosely vertically which is extremely flexible.

I've attached photos of how I did my scale shoulders - overlapping plates at the ends of each row and using a stitch to hold it down. This creates a shape that is curved in two directions.


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Nadeem Ahmad

Eran ud Turan - reconstructing the Iranian and Indian world between Alexander and Islam
https://www.facebook.com/eranudturan
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#94
The Shoulder Lamellar is correct because this is basically a Lamellar Tube-and-Yoke Cuirass.
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#95
Back to you Both,

Quote:The Shoulder Lamellar is correct because this is basically a Lamellar Tube-and-Yoke Cuirass.

Yes, I studied various forms, noticing the yoke style on the ancient Greek linothorax and the Roman harmata, a classical shape that would be sensible with lamellar. As Nadeem mentioned, the shoulder yoke is not overly flexible but it doesn't extend far nor interfere with arm movement. The cuirass (or tube) is flexible enough for me to bend over and touch my toes, not an easy feat for a guy my age.

I can shorten the leather tabs at the top of the arm scales, and I will, but I think an articulated (loosely laced, as Nadeem suggested) lamellar "secondary" at the round of the shoulders would solve the problem. Another weak spot is the area around the opening of the tube and armpit, but I'll rework the chainmail and take care of that. Here is a straight-on photo of the armor. It weighs about 40 pounds, since the lamellar links are either 16 or 18 gage steel.

[attachment=9770]DSC_0035.JPG[/attachment]


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Less than 1 minute ago" />   
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
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#96
Very nice Alan! Beautiful. Smile
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#97
I think shortening the scales would be the most "historically correct" option. Interested to see what you do with it either way. Smile
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#98
As I mentioned, the scales are incorrect-- only 2 holes (at the top) and sewn by a continuous-- and exposed-- length of rawhide. The lamellar seems OK; and I swear it's heavy enough to stop a bodkin. :cheer:
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Reply
#99
Out of curiosity, do you have any images of the originals or any period iconography? I am rather curios about the arrangement of the scales and lamellar in this fashion.
Nadeem Ahmad

Eran ud Turan - reconstructing the Iranian and Indian world between Alexander and Islam
https://www.facebook.com/eranudturan
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Hi, Nadeem

No. According to Simonenko, all the finds in southern Ukraine and the Crimea were disarticulated. Every grave had been robbed in antiquity. We have the Orlat plaque but it's impossible to define overlap and stitching. Even the following illustration, from an Attic jug, shows insufficient detail... and it looks like scales only but it's yoked and flexible. :wink:
[attachment=9773]Akhilleus_Patroklos_Antikensammlung_Berlin_F2278.jpg[/attachment]

And Simonenko refers to this blurry illustration when discussing combination armor.
[attachment=9774]DSC_0020.JPG[/attachment]

The idea for plates either sewn together or to a backing appears to extend back to the "bone age." Here is a conception of bone splints found in the Altaic, also similar to Siberian finds.
[attachment=9775]sibir_30_2014-05-05.jpg[/attachment]

I have seen this material also depicted as splint greaves. Considering the present state of all these finds, it's impossible to define any of it as a "type." At least that's my understanding of it. We really don't know how old the lamellar-scale conception is, and it shows up in the Neolithic and Bronze Ages from Greece to the Asian steppe to the tiaga of Siberia. :unsure:


Attached Files Thumbnail(s)
Less than 1 minute ago" />    Less than 1 minute ago" />    Less than 1 minute ago" />   
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Reply
Well, the last two images you posted are hardly representative of the western steppes - from my research I understand basically 3 cultural zones in the Eurasian steppe - the western Steppe which was influenced by Europe, Central Asia which was heavily Persianised, and eastern Central Asia, which was heavily Sinicised. Personally, I do not like crossing boundaries without evidence of such appearing in two (or more) zones. The Orlat plaque I would certainly place in the eastern Central Asia sphere, although Orlat itself is just north of Samarqand. A loooooooooong distance from Europe. Occasionally, Chinese influences were found in Europe but I wouldn't assume it the norm.

When talking about combination scale and lamellar armour in Central Asia, they are often combined as a scale bib covering the chest, and lamellar abdomen armour with skirt - this is common in Sogdiana and Xinjiang, although at a much later date than what you are doing. Although, you may recall an armour in Simonenko's book which had a chest protector of very small scales and an abdomen guard of larger plates stitched to a leather backing? Similar to the Dura Europos armoured lancer.

Scale is more flexible than rigid / tight laced 8 hole lamellar as you are wearing, but significantly less flexible than hanging lamellar which can be made by weaving the lamellar loosely vertically. This is possible with 8 hole lamellar but only gives a few cm of slack at most because the holes are so close to the edge.

What does Simonenko say about the second blurry illustration? I see lamellar, and lamellar-banded armour - typical of the early Turks in the 6th - 9th Centuries in the Altai region. The banded-lamellar armour covering his shoulders appears in Japan and Xinjiang, but does not appear further west in this period. I'm unsure if the banded rerebraces/spaulders of the Kushano-Sasanians and 4th-?5th Century Sasanians were laced or riveted.

As for the Orlat Battle Plaque - to me it quite clearly shows lamellar of the Niya variety (2nd -3rd Century) laced in a fashion almost identical to the charioteers on the Terracotta Army much earlier. Some of the riders may be wearing early varieties of Central Asian plate armour - similar to Arsacid, Sasanian, Korean, and most famously, Japanese "tanko" armours.
Nadeem Ahmad

Eran ud Turan - reconstructing the Iranian and Indian world between Alexander and Islam
https://www.facebook.com/eranudturan
Reply
Quote: Personally, I do not like crossing boundaries without evidence of such appearing in two (or more) zones. The Orlat plaque I would certainly place in the eastern Central Asia sphere, although Orlat itself is just north of Samarqand. A loooooooooong distance from Europe. Occasionally, Chinese influences were found in Europe but I wouldn't assume it the norm.

When talking about combination scale and lamellar armour in Central Asia, they are often combined as a scale bib covering the chest, and lamellar abdomen armour with skirt - this is common in Sogdiana and Xinjiang, although at a much later date than what you are doing. Although, you may recall an armour in Simonenko's book which had a chest protector of very small scales and an abdomen guard of larger plates stitched to a leather backing? Similar to the Dura Europos armoured lancer.

What does Simonenko say about the second blurry illustration? I see lamellar, and lamellar-banded armour - typical of the early Turks in the 6th - 9th Centuries in the Altai region. The banded-lamellar armour covering his shoulders appears in Japan and Xinjiang, but does not appear further west in this period. I'm unsure if the banded rerebraces/spaulders of the Kushano-Sasanians and 4th-?5th Century Sasanians were laced or riveted.

As for the Orlat Battle Plaque - to me it quite clearly shows lamellar of the Niya variety (2nd -3rd Century) laced in a fashion almost identical to the charioteers on the Terracotta Army much earlier. Some of the riders may be wearing early varieties of Central Asian plate armour - similar to Arsacid, Sasanian, Korean, and most famously, Japanese "tanko" armours.

I suggest that "no island is an island." Things were not so geographically restricted as you might think. The Eastern influence on the area where the Sarmatians first emerge in Western history (northern Caspian-Pontic) is clearly there. That's why the Chinese dragon ended up on the Welsh national flag. It's why the Asian "dragon and pearl" was depicted on the Equites Taifali Iunior's shields. And it's why Type 1 Late Sarmatian swords had jade furnishings chipped from the mines of the Takla Makan. Almost any scholar knows Sarmatians originated in the EAST. Not just late Sarmatians, but all Sarmatians... including their weapons and armor. At Zubov and Filipovka, even Middle Sarmatian skulls displayed a 30% Asian admixture. The warriors depicted on the Orlat plaque were the same people that were buried in the Kuban peninsula. The plaque dates between the 1st century BC and the 2nd century AD, exactly when such items as "Hunnic" bows with long syahs, and the Chinese-styled two-handed swords start showing up in the Bosphorus.

About the fuzzy illustration in my above post, this is what Simonenko says, "[Lamellar] armour, very similar to the ones found in the Kuban river region [just east of the Crimea], came from the graves of the Sargatskaya culture (fig. 95), Hsing-nu, Kang-hu, and Xsiang-bei graves. They were also present among the armours' details of the settled neighbors in Bactria and China... Most likely, at that time there was a common model of the lamellar armour, with specific features for the different neighboring groups... Lamellar from the [north Pontic] Sarmatian graves constitute one more link of a chain connecting the origin of the Sarmatians with Inner Asia."

The Sargats were mentioned above by Simonenko, and perhaps earliest by Herodotus who called them the "Issedones." They controlled the Isset River region, a tributary of the Tobal, and were in all probability the developers of the socalled "Hunnic" bow. Their elite rode as cataphracts, and here is a reconstruction of their armor, again not very helpful:

[attachment=9791]Sargatskayaculturehorseman.jpg[/attachment]


I really don't care about the number of holes in each of my lamellar plates, because I'm not sending this armor back to a maker who's evidently no longer in business. I'll just wear it as is with a few modifications.

You mentioned that the last two images were "hardly representative of the western steppes." Of course they're not. The Roxolani, Aorsi, Sirices, and Alans-- aka, the Sarmatians-- came from the EASTERN steppes, "a loooong distance from Europe" as you phrased it. Nevertheless, the Eurasian steppe was a vast corridor, full of information, invention, and tactics, that moved west from the borders of China to France, Britain, and even North Africa. Wink


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Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Reply
Quote: [attachment=9770]DSC_0035.JPG[/attachment]

Impressive. And heavy!
I count quite a number of armour types - hamata under lamellar with a squamata 'apron' and shoulders, with a bit of segmentata thrown in? Is there also a subarmalis underneath somewhere?
(too bad the helmet moved!) :whistle:
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Robert Vermaat
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FECTIO Late Roman Society
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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Hello, Robert

Everything was there in combination-- as if I had scrounged it from the battlefield-- EXCEPT a subarmalis, which I really needed to relieve my shoulders. This armor will get a "cut," and I'll lose the segmentata and replace it with a secondary flap of lamellar, or perhaps 2 flaps to also replace the upper arm scales. Basically, it was an experiment. A rather heavy one. Wink
Alan J. Campbell

member of Legio III Cyrenaica and the Uncouth Barbarians

Author of:
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

"It's good to be king. Even when you're dead!"
             Old Yuezhi/Pazyrk proverb
Reply


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