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Glued Linen Armour- a simple test
#46
So does quilted linen! :wink: Smile
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#47
Scott/Rocktupac wrote:
Quote:there is nothing in the visual evidence which suggests them to be quilted.
...I would suggest that the diamond pattern with a dot in the middle would most probably be seen, even by modern eyes, as quilting ( see also the vase painting John Conyard posted). What else might it be interpreted as with any confidence? As you say:
Quote:and this is exactly how one would expect them to appear: not smooth or lacking definable quilting marks, but checkered or grid-like. This quilted-grid design would have been familiar to any viewer and they would have immediately recognized this as a quilted undergarment. (See especially the soldier looking back in horror directly below Darius frantically holding onto a horse's reins.)
The 'quilting' is most obvious on the corselet of Darius' driver, and can be contrasted with the relatively smooth corselet of the cavalryman hand on head.
Quote:Homer certainly does use the word. It is not modern. The lesser Ajax wears a "linothorex" in 2.529, and later at 2.830 Adrastus and Amphius also wear one (...Adrestos te kai Amphios linothorex...).
I've no wish to split hairs over the exact spelling, especially as ancient Greek is often rendered into our alphabet in sevral ways. I'll happily concede that Homer's word is close enough to the modern 'linothorax'.
Quote:How can you be certain? Not one Greek army or contingent, regardless of the enormous expense of bronze armor, wore the linen tube-and-yoke corselet in the Classical Age? Is there evidence to support this?
You are taking my words out out of context. I was pointing out that Homer's references to 'linen' armour, supported by Mycenaean frescos such as the 12 C BC example from Pylos showing white 'linen' greaves, are not evidence for the use of 'linen' armour 700 years later. As to your question, of course we cannot be sure, but the point is that there is not one solid piece of evidence that mainland Greek States of the Classical era used linen to make armour, despite the fact that they obviously knew of the practice of foreign Anatolian barbarians.....
As i have indicated, Nepos passage is very suspicious and definitely anachronistic.The phrase he uses is "pro sertis atquae linteas dedit" - the word "sertis" = interwoven meaning that the armour was interwoven, which can hardly be a reference to anything but mail.

Quote:To dismiss the Amasis reference as a mere garment is unfounded in my opinion.
As I say, the word 'thorakes' older meaning is 'body covering' - in this sense it can even mean the discarded sloughed skin of a snake ! I repeat, no Greek Goddess ( IIRC) is ever depicted in a corselet, only Amazons. Even if it is a corselet, it is an Egyptian one, not Greek.

With regard to Xenophon, you simply prove the point. Nowhere is Greek armour described as linen, only foreign/barbarian/anatolian - and significantly he never says "like ours", but rather uses the epithet 'linen' to distinguish foreign armour. ( see previous threads for detailed discussion) Greek armour is either plain 'thorakes' (presumably a reference to bronze muscled cuirasses) or 'spolades' -leather Tube-and-Yoke corselets, which equates well with these two types of body armour in iconography.

Quote:After all, to use Plutarch once again, Alexander is mentioned as having a linen corselet before Gaugamela. I am partly playing Devil's advocate. I realize, at this point, it is impossible to determine one way or another.

The one and only time (AFIK) a Greek/Macedonian is described as wearing a linen corselet, we are specifically told it was Persian, captured in the spoils of Issus!
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#48
The word Homer uses is a compound one. It isn't a label, it is a description. The most literal translation would be "armour of linen". This is different to calling it a "linothorax".

FWIW I have no idea whether Greek armour was quilted. There is nowhere near enough evidence to make a case either way. But if you look at surviving pieces of layered textile armour in any museum from any culture and any time period you'll discover that they are, without exception, quilted. If glue, or a composite of linen/leather was such a wonderful design, one would expect someone somewhere to have used it. The only time leather is used in the construction of layered textile armour is as a cover.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#49
Quote:I've no wish to split hairs...

As the actress said to the bishop...

When it comes to this subject, my good fellow, hairs are amongst the largest objects you are capable of splitting. Then again, I might be confusing that with the subject of pezhetairoi. Back to the shiraz...
Paralus|Michael Park

Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους

Wicked men, you are sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander!

Academia.edu
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#50
Dan wrote:
Quote:The word Homer uses is a compound one. It isn't a label, it is a description. The most literal translation would be "armour of linen". This is different to calling it a "linothorax".
Thanks for the reminder/clarification, Dan - a relevant point. Smile "body covering/armour of linen", when speaking of foreign/barbarian equipment.
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#51
Here's something which might bring something new to this seemingly undying debate: a conference on "Military and Textile" was held in Copenhagen last month, and it features several articles on textile armour. Though the conference was discussed here on RAT, I don't think it's been brought up in this debate.

http://ctr.hum.ku.dk/upload/application ... %20May.pdf

Ancient Greek linen corselet by Eero Jarva, University of Oulu, Finland

Quote:Eero Jarva

Abstract: Ancient Greek linen corselet

A group of ancient written sources refer to use of linen corselets among several peoples
in the antiquity. In the Greek world the testimony begins with the Homeric Iliad. May be
there have been varying structural solutions in the linen corselets, but for a long time it has
been recognized in the common breastplate type provided with shoulder pieces and flaps
hanging in the bottom. Different tactical uses are obvious: probably it was used as an
equipment of heavily armed hoplites but explicitly it is connected to horsemen and the
more lightly armed soldiers called peltastai, which were introduced by Iphicrates in the first
half of the 4th century BC. We hear of doubts regarding the resistibility of the linen corselet
but there is also opposite testimony. The horseman connections of the linen corselet and
mentioning of its use by kings suggest that it was quite expensive. This is suggested also by
the technical and protective needs and the prices of linen documented in written sources.
[email protected]

The mention of Iphicrates' reforms is obviously misguided (and has already been addressed), but what's this reference to the linen cuirass' "explicit connection to horsemen"? I'd be interested to read this when (or if) the proceedings are published.

Other points of interest include a study of the iconographic representations of what seem to be linen cuirasses in Etruscan art and a discussion of the multi-layered linen fragment "associated with a quantity of bronze scales" from Masada, which is identified as a pterux.
Ruben

He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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#52
I like these discussions very much although many many things sound very very familiar. :wink: But always something new appeared and is worth the effort.

The congress sounds interesting. Some questions spring to my mind. Strange to hear about the devotion to the cavalry while many (seemingly) hoplite warriors in the 5th c. BC were depicted on vases with tube-and-yoke armour. Why were the Greeks around Xenophon in Asia Minor able to use peltasts if Iphikrates just introduced them some years later?

To quilted cuirasses: Some but few Greek vase paintings show it relatively clearly, at least in my humble opinion.
To leather: there is, beneath of course the famous and often cited two lexica of late antiquity about spolades, also a reference (I know it only second-handed) to a finding which was intepreted as part of a leather armour of the 8th c. BC, so I would not say that we have less "evidence" for leather than for linen. We have indeed no evidence for nothing and the nice opportunity to discuss it further and further and so avoid boredom. Big Grin
Wolfgang Zeiler
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#53
Quote:To leather: there is, beneath of course the famous and often cited two lexica of late antiquity about spolades, also a reference (I know it only second-handed) to a finding which was intepreted as part of a leather armour of the 8th c. BC, so I would not say that we have less "evidence" for leather than for linen. We have indeed no evidence for nothing and the nice opportunity to discuss it further and further and so avoid boredom. Big Grin

There is, indeed, more than enough of room for speculation to keep us busy. I am currently working on a reconstruction of what a t-y leather thorax might have looked like and later to try it its functionality and protection attributes. It was mentioned before (maybe it wasnt even this thread, things get complicated Smile ) that the availability of resources is the main factor when it comes to armor and arms production. In localities with lots of mountains and abundance of ore, bronze is most likely to be the primary resource for armor. On the other hand, in localities with a lot of pastures and cattle, leather would be the preffered material. Same can be said about localities with abundance of linen (abundance is probably a strong word, as linen cloth was still very expensive in most places).

Please note this is an experiment Smile Only the skirt and the scales can be considered as finished, the upper torso and flaps will undergo a lot of work before I will be satisfied.

[Image: snmka000.jpg]
Juraj "Lýsandros" Skupy
Dierarchos
-----------------------
In the old times, people were much closer to each other. The firing range of their weapons simply wasnt long enough Smile
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#54
Wow, very nice Lysandros. Impressive! It looks great, keep up the good work!
Scott B.
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#55
Yes, indeed, looks very good. One question: is the "yoke" part a separate piece? I thought it was made in one piece together with the "tube" which goes around the body, but I haven't studied the construction of this form of cuirass so much yet. I hope you will show us the result also while wearing it, perhaps in the impression-thread. And btw, could you also make one for me? :wink:
Wolfgang Zeiler
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#56
Geala/Wolfgang wrote:
Quote:I thought it was made in one piece together with the "tube" which goes around the body, but I haven't studied the construction of this form of cuirass so much yet.
There are many variations on greek Tube-and-Yokes,as I'm sure you know, Smile wink: ) and both Yokes as a single piece with the Tube, and separate Yokes are depicted in the iconography.
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#57
Thanks. Big Grin
No, I was not aware of this, acting as one of the psiloi I have not the burden to reconstruct such an armour, so I jumped only on the irresolvable theoretical questions. BTW, was the tube-and-yoke in fact made from leather or linen...? Confusedhock: (ducks down and steals away)
Wolfgang Zeiler
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#58
At last, I have finished the leather composite T-Y thorax. After experimenting with it and wearing it for some time, I will have to adjust it a bit more (such as shortening the skirt), but I am generally satisfied with the look of it. Here is the first pic, I will upload more when I find the USB cable for my camera Tongue

Sorry for the kitchen background Big Grin

[Image: snmka021.jpg]
Juraj "Lýsandros" Skupy
Dierarchos
-----------------------
In the old times, people were much closer to each other. The firing range of their weapons simply wasnt long enough Smile
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#59
What sort of body armour were "Xenophon's" mercenary hoplites wearing on their anabasis?
Paralus|Michael Park

Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους

Wicked men, you are sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander!

Academia.edu
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#60
Maybe I missed it in my quick review of the thread, but what is the "gold" colored decoration? Paint?
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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