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Impression questions
#1
Alright, so we've narrowed our planned impressions down to a 15 year span....(115 to 130 A.D. ) and pretty much narrowed down that we would like to have our impressions have been part of Legio VI Victrix. That time span, from what I have read, allows us to have served in Germania Inferior before being moved to Britain in 122 A.D.

We now have to work at nailing down the precise equipment worn and used during that span. Unfortunately most references I have found, so far, are relative to 20 years or so before. So I am hoping for some info on what shoe type (open or closed toe), helm type ( was thinking Italic types), and segmentata type we will need for our legionary types as we grow. (yeah I'm hopeful and ambitious :wink: )

Just received my copy of The Roman Legions Recreated in Color Photographs" and am perusing it for any info we can use. Beautiful book, absolutely beautiful. Hope I can find some excellent, time frame appropriate pics inside. Also gonna try and find some images of Trajan's column and see what I can glean from them, even though they are a few years before our selected time. Would the gear have changed too much in that span of time?

Anyhow, thanks for indulging my ignorance here, and I appreciate any help that we can get in these areas. :wink:
[size=134:1hf2k67y]Caius Marius[/size]
[size=100:1hf2k67y]known as Chris Petersen in the"mundane" world.[/size] :wink: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" />:wink:
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#2
Quote:Also gonna try and find some images of Trajan's column and see what I can glean from them, even though they are a few years before our selected time.

cheiron.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~trajan/
________________________________________
Jvrjenivs Peregrinvs Magnvs / FEBRVARIVS
A.K.A. Jurjen Draaisma
CORBVLO and Fectio
ALA I BATAVORUM
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#3
Jurjen,

Thank you for that link, that is exactly what I was looking for. :wink:

After doing some more forum trolling here, I am thinking about re-thinking our time frame. Seems to be a few convincing arguments regarding the lack of accurately dated archaeological finds for the first half of the 2nd century A.D. A changing of the time also likely means a change in the unit we would be portraying as we are preferring to portray a unit that would be stationed in Britain at the end of our time frame. Looks like I get to go back to more research, which is always fun as I always find something new and interesting. :wink:

Of course, some of you may be still be able to answer my questions from the previous post (above this one). If so I greatly appreciate it. Thanks again in advance.
[size=134:1hf2k67y]Caius Marius[/size]
[size=100:1hf2k67y]known as Chris Petersen in the"mundane" world.[/size] :wink: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" />:wink:
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#4
I can't see the problem with your chosen AD115 to 130 time frame. We are certainly left with much less evidence for soldiers' equipment than we are for the popular mid first century AD period, but that does not mean that we do not have enough evidenc to have a good idea of what a soldier might have looked like at that time.
For helmets, you would have a number of options. It is likely that quite a few late first century Imperial Gallic and Imperial Italic helmets were still knocking around, albeit in many cases modified with retro-fitted crossed re-enforcments. There are also surviving helmets which were probably made in the decade or so after the Dacian wars. So you could also use Imperial Gallic type 'K' and Imperial Italic type 'G' (Hebron), both of which seem to be more or less contemporary with each other, as well (possibly) as the Theilenhofen helmet. You may find it difficult to get a Gallic 'K' but if you drop a line to Peronis he should be able to supply you with the other helmet types, although any retro-fitting of re-enforcements would have to be done by you.
You would probably be safest for body armour with mail or scale, but Corbridge segmentata was still around and the Newstead type was beginning to make an appearance. Shield dimensions may well have been similar to first century examples as well.
For swords you could still use the Pompeii type gladius, although ring pommel swords may have been starting to make an appearance towards the end of your period. You might have more difficulty with military belts, the most fashion conscious aspect of a soldier's kit. You would probaby need fairly heavy enamelled or openwork plates. I don't know anyone who makes these right now or even exactly what belt plate types were in use at the time but Mike Bishop might be able to give some good advice on this. Peronis may be able to recommend a supplier as well. You should probably avoid putting aprons on your belts as well. Don't bother with daggers either for that period.
For footwear, you would be best to go with the type of boots which have commonly been found at Vindolanda. Martin Moser can probably give you advice on making these.

I hope this helps.

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
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#5
Crispvs,

Thanks for the informative reply. In our prospective groups discussions, the three of us (we are very small at the moment hehe) discussed many things that will have an effect on the time frame we will end up with. The major ones are cost and availability of the parts of our kits, followed closely by the "appearance" of the kit that each of us seems to prefer. Its somewhat less of a factor for myself as I am working up a centurio impression, but my legionaires very much like the segmentata, especially the Corbridge type which tends to push us a few years back form our original thoughts. How common was it still in the original time frame we listed? Has it declined quite a bit by that time and before the Newstead has made its appearance?

I have the feeling though, that it is going to come down to cost and ease of availability for us at least to start with. The helms and other parts should be a non-issue, but if we have start commissioning more and more parts then the cost may move quickly out of our range.

Again, thank you for the info, you have given us more food for thought as we prepare to get our little venture off of the ground. :wink:
[size=134:1hf2k67y]Caius Marius[/size]
[size=100:1hf2k67y]known as Chris Petersen in the"mundane" world.[/size] :wink: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" />:wink:
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#6
There was obviosly some crossover between Corbridge and Newstead types so Corbridge armour would not really be a problem. If anyone wanted mail however, they might be able to make it themselves, which would be a considerable cost saving. The belt parts would be the most difficult part but as I said, Mike Bishop might be able to show the way there. For boots, not only can Martin Moser show you the sort of thing you should be aiming for but he can also tell you how to make them yourselves, again saving you money.
For your own impression, unless you have already got the centurio gear together, I would suggest going for a more juior impression like an optio for the time being. It would be odd to see a centurio with only two or three men but perhaps less odd for his optio. When numbers grow a bit sell the kit on and play the centurio part then.

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
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#7
Salve,Caius Marius,
Here's a picture from another thread showing early and later 2nd C. kits.
The thread is titled, "Newstead segs and Niedermormter helms" or similar.
Andy Booker

Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs

Andronikos of Athens
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#8
Salve Andy,
Thanks for the pic and the tip to check out that that thread. Just when we tought we had an easier decision its back to being a little more difficult. Hehe, such is life. :wink:

Crispvs,
I do understand what your saying about centurio vs optio, but I really cannot afford to gamble that later on when it may be a better time to do a centurio that I will find someone who will fit into, like, or want to purchase my kit from me. I also tend to be too generous at times (Is that possible?) and would likely end up giving my old kit away, which would give my wife more cause to give me a hard time for spending too much on too many kits. If momma ain't happy, aint nobody happy...know what I mean?

Another reason, is that we are also considering doing a bit of "show and tell" at the local elementary schools, to teach and inspire the kids a bit, and in talking to our own children we have found that the centurion and legionary are two different, easily recognized types of soldier and it gives us an opportunity to discuss the different ranks and structure of the Roman Army. Also one of the three of us is already considering doing an optio impression as well, so that will also be covered in our "show and tell" . I agree that it seems like a case of "too many chiefs, too few indians" to start with, but we are being optimistic that we will be able to grow annd expand our troop presence. If we are lucky we may even eventually find someone willing to portray an emporer or a legate as well as I think the kids will relate well to them as well.
[size=134:1hf2k67y]Caius Marius[/size]
[size=100:1hf2k67y]known as Chris Petersen in the"mundane" world.[/size] :wink: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" />:wink:
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#9
Here's a pic I did for Bishop & Coulston's book, Roman Military Equipment (2nd Ed.), of a Dacian campaign legionary to their instructions and specs:

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i311/ ... _small.jpg
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#10
Jim,

That is a great pic. I had read that they had added the extra arm protection and even greaves for the "grunt" legionary' for the Dacian wars. That is a sharp impression. I definately like it.

As I'm doing a centurio, I had wondered how dificult it would be to mount the crest supports with the added cross pieces. I have seen pics of the centurio from Leg VI Victrix (David Michaels, can't recall his roman re-enactment name atm, Flavius Crispus I think but could be incorrect) in some of their older pics where he is wearing the "Hebron", I think its called. (Its the one with the brass half-moons.) I have always been impressed by his kit and plan to model most of mine after his, though with few differences.

I also am curious as to whether there are any all brass helms that would a) be appropriate for the time frame b) have the slot for mounting a centurio crest, and c) be appropriate for a centurio to wear. I have seen one that has mountings for the front-to-back crest as well as side tubes for feathers ala an optio or tessarius. A couple of reasons I am thinking brass are that a) I like the look and b) It will match the greaves I am looking at purchasing.

Please forgive me for not being as precise as I could be with names and helmet types, but it's after midnight here and I'm trying to finish this before falling asleep. :wink:

Again, I thank you for the help and advice! Big Grin
[size=134:1hf2k67y]Caius Marius[/size]
[size=100:1hf2k67y]known as Chris Petersen in the"mundane" world.[/size] :wink: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" />:wink:
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#11
Hi Caius,

Quote:So I am hoping for some info on what shoe type (open or closed toe)

Recently researchers like van Driel seem to be of the opinion that the caliga was out of service by that time AFAIK. besides the Vindolanda finds Crispvs mentioned above, you could e.g. look at the Bar Hill finds for inspiration, they should be good for around 130AD. You can see one example here.

Oh, and if you should go for a ring pommel sword, yuo should choose one without inlay on the pommel, those seem to be the ones that were around first from what I read.
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#12
I can indeed supply helmets for the period you wish to portray, I am the only supplier currently that has the Theilenhofen cross-braced helmet mentioned by Crispvs.
http://www.armamentaria.com/store/index ... ucts_id=99

I can also supply open-work belt plates and buckles from an Antonine context, and am currently working on getting some of the enamelled second century plates (Caerleon type) into production.
[Image: DSCF2676-1.jpg]

[Image: antonine.jpg]

I have just received my Vindolanda fell-boots from Robin Browne at Rigorevali www.rigorevali.co.uk

They're Beautiful, small conical hobnails as sharp as puppies teeth! Also very reasonably priced too for custom-shoes....
[Image: Boots1.jpg]
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#13
Here's the drawings from Bishop and Coulston of the original pieces to the parts reconstructed by Nodge Nolan in the post above..

I will post some more photos of the Caerleon type plates later for you..
[Image: antonineBC.png]
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#14
Caius Marius,

I think that the brass helmet you were thinking of was the Imperial Gallic type 'I', which would be mid to late first century, although there is no reason to think that a few old ones would not still have been in service in the second quarter of the second century AD.

For the time being I would also caution against trying to mount a crest on a cross braced helmet, simply because those which have survived show no evidence of how a crest would have been fitted or even that crests were still worn. It is entirely possible that centuriones came again to depend on tinned or silvered helmets for field identification, possibly embellished with enamel or the forerunners of the settings found on some late Roman helmets. They would still have had their long greaves and vine sticks too. As to feathers in helmets, sadly the truth is that the use of feathers in feather tubes at the sides of helmets to identify rank is what is known as a 'factoid' - a bright idea that someone once had which has been passed around for so long that most people now regard it as fact. In fact there is no evidence to show that side plumes were a rank indicator. No helmets that I know of identify the owners as having sub-centurial ranks. There are even tantalising suggestions that side plumes may in some cases have acted a unit identifiers (all of the Imperial Gallic type 'I' helmets so far identified were fitted to take a central crest and side plumes and one has an inscription showing it to have belonged to a soldier of one of the Adiutrix legions. The stele of Gaius Castricius Victor, also a soldier in one of the Adiutrix legions, shows him wearing a helmet with a central crest and side plumes).

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
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#15
Quote:I have just received my Vindolanda fell-boots from Robin Browne at Rigorevali

Nice shoes you got there, Adrian, congrats!
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