Mounted Javelinmen

[Johnny Shumate]

Arrian writes that Alexander used mounted javeliners in his battles. Were these soldiers Greek, Macedonian or Persian..?
Thanks,
Johnny

[Hoplitesmores]

Macedonians are Greeks.If it was Persians they would be added much later in the campaign.

[Hoplitesmores]

Accompanying Alexander's army during the invasion of Asia were approximately 1,600 light allied cavalry, hailing from the rest of Greece, Thrace and Paeonia. These units were equipped with javelins or thrusting spears and carried little or no body armor. Their main function was to protect the heavy cavalry and the phalanx from enemy attacks. In general these units lacked the exclusive discipline and training of the Thessalians and Companions. Most outstanding of the light cavalry were the 600 Thracian prodromoi or Scouts, used for reconnaissance and preliminary attacks

Hippakontistès (GR): mounted javelinman

[Hoplitesmores]

Sorry about my abruptness :roll: but its really ticking us greeks alot here on the given issue. :evil:

[Johnny Shumate]

Hoplitesmores,
I didn't mean as a different race, only in military terms. A Greek hoplite would be different from a Macedonian hoplite, etc....

Would you say that the Thracians could have been these mounted javeliners..?

Thanks,

Johnny

[M.H. White]

Macedonians are Greeks.If it was Persians they would be added much later in the campaign.

A little OT, but I'd say thats a pretty hard statement to make. From everything I've ever read about the pre-Philip II Macedon, it sounds pretty much as if the Greeks definitely considered the Macedonians barbarians, and that the Macedonians really didn't consider themselves Greeks.

Only the Argeads were allowed (after a time) to compete in the Olympic Games, King Alexander (I?) the Philhellene, the whole Macedonian way of life (as in, not living in the polis), it just doesn't add up. Why does it bother Greeks today if Macedonians weren't Greeks? I mean, without the proximity and influence of the Greeks, they would never have had the tools to rise up and conquer most of the world.

[MeinPanzer]

Macedonians are Greeks.If it was Persians they would be added much later in the campaign.

A little OT, but I'd say thats a pretty hard statement to make. From everything I've ever read about the pre-Philip II Macedon, it sounds pretty much as if the Greeks definitely considered the Macedonians barbarians, and that the Macedonians really didn't consider themselves Greeks.

Only the Argeads were allowed (after a time) to compete in the Olympic Games, King Alexander (I?) the Philhellene, the whole Macedonian way of life (as in, not living in the polis), it just doesn't add up. Why does it bother Greeks today if Macedonians weren't Greeks? I mean, without the proximity and influence of the Greeks, they would never have had the tools to rise up and conquer most of the world.

The way I've always understood it is that there is kind of a spectrum of Greekness which was based on geography. The inhabitants of the Peloponnese, Attica, Boeotia, etc. were considered "pure" Greek, while the inhabitants of outlying areas like Thessaly and Ionia were considered a bit more barbaric due to being away from the ideal climate of southern Greece and being exposed to peripheral foreign cultures. I think the Macedonians were on the border between being Greek and being barbarian, so that they shared much of the same culture but had enough different about them that they weren't really Greek.

[Ioannis]

And of course we should not forget that when Demosthenes, for instance, called the Macedonians "barbarians" was purely for political reasons. The Macedonians had a king, something that was totally opposite to the Athenian democratic ideology.

[Idomeneas]

the greeks considered the Macedonians barbarians as much as North USA people considered southern USA people rednecks.
The non greek Macedonians has to do with a known political issue and its around for the last 50 years. Before that everybody considered Macedonians as greek as Athenians, Spartans, Thebans etc. Did new finds occured? Did any excavation exposed a non greek macedonian culture? No. Quite the opposite.
Demosthenes said to atheneans the BS politicians say to people in times of war and nothing more.
Many years before that Alexander worn the Greeks about the persian battle plan in plataia riding alone in the dark with all the danger that this concluded to a vassal of the persian empire.
So i reverse the question. Why Macedonians are not Greek? Where is their language? Writting? Customs. The political system they had proves nothing as it wasnt that far from the spartan one and no one calls them non greek. But i suppose the nowdays neighbours of Sparta are rest pelloponeseans and the fishes in the sea around it. So nobody there to write books flood the internet and all the rest :wink:

[Johnny Shumate]

There is a lot of differences between "Northerners" and "Southerners" in America, but we all concur that we are Americans. Would this apply with Macedonians and the Greeks? Aren't they of the same race..?

Also, as an American, don't call me a Yankee. That refers to the New England states. My ancestors landed in Virginia and North Carolina. Moving west into Kentucky and Tennessee...

Johnny

[Sean Manning]

Idomeneus, let's be careful to keep this discussion calm and focussed. I notice you say "Macedonians are" (present tense) not "Macedonians were" (past tense) despite the fact that we are talking about ancient history.

Macedon had few poleis, and its native language was fairly distant from that of southern Greece (I won't get into the unsolvable argument over whether it was a Greek dialect or not). It was also a state (whereas Greece was a collection of states organized in various federations and empires), and was largely ignored by Greek writers before Philip II. On the other hand, it was heavily influenced by southern Greece (although also by Thrace, the empire, etc.) I think it is perfectly reasonable to speak of Greeks and Macedonians, or to speak of a larger category (Hellenes?) starting around Philip's reign.

[Muzzaguchi]

Hi Guys,

Just a polite reminder to keep contemporary politics out of this discussion. And especially in regard to Alexander and the Macedonians being Greek or not, there will never be any agreement as proponents of both sides will not be swayed by the other sides' arguments for whatever reason. As Sean says calm and focussed.

Cheers

Murray

[Hoplitesmores]

They were greeks among the greeks and called barbarians by athenians to insult them as were spartans and others.

And to the Romans as well

Testimonies of Non-Greek ancient people about ancient Macedonians
ROMANS

Quintus Curtius Rufus

Quote:
Alexander also summoned the delegates of the League of Corinth in order to have himself declared its Hegemon and, when he had obtained their support for his expedition against Persia, he returned to Macedonia (Diod. 17.4.9) The government of Persia had undergone a number of changes since Philip II first organized the Greek crusade against the East.
The History of Alexander - Penguin Classics, Translation by John Yardley, page 20

Quote:
“They recalled that at the start of his reign Darius had issued orders for the shape of the scabbard of the Persian scimitar to be altered to the shape used by the Greeks, and that the Chaldeans had immediately interpreted this as meaning that rule over the Persians would pass to those people whose arms Darius had copied. “
(Quintus Curtius Rufus 3.3.6)


Quote:
“For his part Alexander responded much like this: ‘His majesty Alexander to Darius: Greetings. The Darius whose name you have assumed wrought much destruction upon the Greek inhabitants of the Hellespontine coast and upon the Greek colonies of Ionia, and the crossed the sea with a mighty army, bringing the war to Macedonia and Greece. On another occasion Xerxes, a member of the same family, came with his savage barbarian troops, and even when beaten in a naval engagement he still left Mardonius in Greece so that he could destroy our cities and burn our fields though absent himself.â€

[Hoplitesmores]

The ancient macedonians were the Northwest Greeks with the Epirotes.Both are attested to Be greeks and both among others like Spartans,Thessalians are insulted by Athenians to be Barbarians.They are never called Illyrians or Thracians merely insulted.Asides from that they spoke a common greek nw dialect and not something else.

Why does this Athenocentricity exists in the view of Ancient Greece? For the Culture? Even the name of the Greeks comes from Epirotes and Thessalians and not from the Athenians.

They were Greeks and not Thracians or Illyrians.And certainly not Escimoes or anything proposed by most modern neighbour states of modern Greece.

All sources and archaeology tells us they were Greeks.Was Aristotle and all other ancients Greeks,Persians,Hindu,Jewish,Roman...... stoned when they write they(epirus,macedon) are Greeks?

[Hoplitesmores]

Hippakontistès (1600)

300 Paeonians commanded by Cassander
600 thracians commanded by Cassander
700 Various Greeks commanded by Erygius

Give or take on the numbers according to each source.

[url:39npvg0r]http://www.livius.org/aj-al/alexander/alexander_t02.html[/url]