Marines

[M.H. White]

So what do you guys know about the armament of marines during the period from the Peloponnesian War era onward? I don't think I've ever ran across anything detailing how they fought.

[hoplite14gr]

Marines (ancient: EPIVATES-lit passengers) of each city state were elite units with their own shield emblem.
They started as heavily armed hoplites and they ended Ekdromoi or psiloi.
First the grieves were gone as the trirem sides offered some protection to lower body. Then the armor gradually as with hoplites in the land.
To supplement the hoplites, misslemen were incorporated in the trireme marine detachment (Skythian, Cretan and Carian archers or Rhodian slingers.)
Marines ussualy hot double the pay of the oarsmen. The Athenian league marines initialy dominated until the Siciliot greeks came to aid the sprtnas and Persian money upgraded the Peloponessian fleets.
Marines were porobably the only greek troops who fought barefoot.
Kind regards

[conon394]

To supplement the hoplites, misslemen were incorporated in the trireme marine detachment (Skythian, Cretan and Carian archers or Rhodian slingers.)

Perhaps in some navies, but at least for Athens you’re leaving out some 1200-16000 or citizen archers (for example Thuc 2.13) – the range is that I suppose he may be lumping in the ‘Scythian police’ archers.

Marines were porobably the only greek troops who fought barefoot.

aboard ship you mean?

[hoplite14gr]

Right Paul, I meant the ships decks.

I am more inclined to accept slingers form Parnitha or Acharane for Athenian light troops. The archers, though Athenians could not be excluded, would probably be Skythians and at the late Peloponessian war even Carians or Thracians.
Slingers might be hindered though on the closed in the confined space of the ship.

Coritnhians would use Akarnanians or Chaones archers from western Greece. Italiotic Greeks probably Sicanoi or Siculoi. I do not exclude th epossibility od Mercenary Cretans or other Greeks also.


Javelineers from Calyndos and Samothraki are mentioned too.

Kind regards

[conon394]

I am more inclined to accept slingers form Parnitha or Acharane for Athenian light troops. The archers, though Athenians could not be excluded, would probably be Skythians and at the late Peloponessian war even Carians or Thracians.
Slingers might be hindered though on the closed in the confined space of the ship.

Coritnhians would use Akarnanians or Chaones archers from western Greece. Italiotic Greeks probably Sicanoi or Siculoi. I do not exclude th epossibility od Mercenary Cretans or other Greeks also.

I think we will largely have to agree to disagree on this point…

The evidence only supports a relatively small force of Scythians (200 or 300) – the Democracy (at Athens) was willing to create ‘out of the blue’ if you will a navy, and a cavalry force why are you so reluctant to allow that they might also have raised a citizen force of archers. I don’t doubt/dispute that the kind of aristocratic leaning authors from Athens or elsewhere in classical Greece that provides most of out literary evidence held archery in distain - but the same people also held craftsmen and the naval mob in distain also, yet Athens was happy to support/enable/abet those types why not archers as well?
By the late Peloponnesian war the Athenians were using and deploying citizen peltasts and were increasingly unable to pay mercenaries the market rate, it seems to me by that point the arches would likely also be more and more all Athenian.

One problem in particular is that Thucydides is fairly clear that Pericles enumerated 1600 archers as a constant-regular Athenian asset. In the same passage Pericles mentions not at all any allied assets only Athenian money and troops – but T provided no definite tag to any particular groups (i.e. them are mercs while they are citizens). Now the Scythians may have been good archers but they had zip for a naval reputation and the last thing that would help make Athenian warships the most feared in the Med is a bunch of tyro/lubbers recruited each year messing around on the deck. Moreover the evidence tends to suggest that missile troops on triremes needed to be specialists that could fire from a sitting position (and not on a horse but butt on wood and could follow orders from a deck hand).

1600 is not a small number, to be effective they would need more or less to have been in regular service constantly and readily available. The Scythians are predominantly noted as a sort of police force not as part of the navy and if the archers were all or even mostly mercenaries it would seem to me they would have had to be paid on an ongoing year round basis a rather heavy burden.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

1600/4=400.If each ship had 4 archers then with 1600 men you equip 400 ships!I don't think the Athenians ever had more than 400 ships!

[Susanne]

One problem in particular is that Thucydides is fairly clear that Pericles enumerated 1600 archers as a constant-regular Athenian asset. In the same passage Pericles mentions not at all any allied assets only Athenian money and troops – but T provided no definite tag to any particular groups (i.e. them are mercs while they are citizens).

Paul, would you mind supplying us with a reference to that passage?

[hoplite14gr]

Hmm...I only partly disagree with you Paul.

Acharnae today is a heavily urban area but at that time its dwellers were known as woodsmen and herders. Good source for light troops.
Same applies to mountain of Parnitha. These would be Athenians.
I have reservations of the number of archers though.

More evidence points to slingers being predominant in Greece rather than archers. I share your reservation of Skythians being "timid in water"
But coastal Thracians, Cilicians, Bitynians were not.
Athenians had more funds than others and could employ mercs more easily.

Also Chaones, mountaineers from Epeiros who were employed by the Corinthians did not seem to have problems on board.

Kind regards

[hoplite14gr]

The less well known Spartan Marines here:
http://www.spartan-world.de/sparta.html

Please click on Spartan Marines link to view article.

Kind regards

[conon394]

“Herodotus mentions 40 vessels in Salamis…â€

[hoplite14gr]

Thanks for the correction Paul.
:oops:

Kind regards

[conon394]

Susanne

Sorry I thought I had replied to you post but I guess I forgot.

I was referring to the last section of 4.18 in particular to the last section bit covering the cavalry, the archers and ships.