The English and the Celts - no genocide?

[Robert Vermaat]

I had understood that the Salian Franks were just those who remained east of the Rhine when Clovis et al. moved west and set up housekeeping in what became France. Is that incorrect? They were two distinct groups?

Hi Ron,

By the late 5th c., there were three main Frankish groups, although all were a mixed bunch with kings and sub-kings, without a tight control by an overking. Most started out in a very Roman context, as Roman citizens or federates, with Roman functions.

The Salian Franks were Roman federates who had been settled by Julian in Belgium and northern France, a region called Toxandria, hence them also being called Toxandrian Franks. Clovis originated in this group, and he had to deal with several smaller kings inside the group to gain the upper hand. Inbetween, these Franks were still loyal to Rome, and eventully to Aegidius and Syagrius.
The Rhine Franks were also Roman federates, with a structure we don't know a lot about. they were a fairly strong group, and it took Clovis years to conquer them. before that, they had bested the Alamanni in a struggle for power of the Upper Rhine.
The Franks of Arbogast lived east of the Salian Franks in Lotharingia, or rather the province Belgica II. We don't know a lot about them either, other than that they, too, had probably originally been settled there by the Romans. Arbogast was wise enough not to challenge Clovis, so he handed his province over to Clovis, in a move which would legally (in a Roman context) have seemed like a normal changeover of one provincial ruler to the next.. Of course, it wasn't.

'Salian Saxons' ight be saxons who had gained control of the Salian homeland, the modern Dutch province Overijssel.