06-21-2007, 06:21 PM
I will perhaps sometimes later try to upload something but in the meantime I'll restrict myself to two attached pictures. The rest is not so important.
Also you did already post two pictures which I wanted to show, Giannis.
In some of your pictures (and some others I have here) it is clearly seen that the chiton was also depicted with pleats above the belt which correpond with those below. That could be a hint that it is not the upper part of the chiton itself when it is shown without pleats but in the "wavy" manner instead. So I interprete the same pictures in just another way. :wink:
In the one of your pictures (with the quarrel between Aias and Odysseus about Achills armour) the depicted chitons interestingly do not show pleats at the lower end. Are it perhaps chitons from a thicker material? And do you see the second line parallel to the lower hem? Could be a reeding or another garment over the chiton; it is too low to be part of the normal bulk at the waist (it is perhaps just overinterpretation to mention the second line, I admit).
Of course one could say that the different appearance was only a different technique to show the same fact. However I see a little reason for distrust this theory when I find the both methods together in one picture, like in pic 1 below. All three divine persons in the foreground show the pleated lower end of a chiton in exactly the same way. The figures on the right and on the left have corresponding pleated chiton ends (wrong sleeves I presume) at the arm holes. But Hermes in the centre shows the "wavy" upper part appearance. Why did the artist chose this way if not another material/ upper garment should be shown?
And there are some other pictures even in my small data source which show warriors with "pleats below and pleats above" together with warriors with "pleats below and wavy above".
And let's take a look to pic 2: I am really not able to interprete the upper part as a part of the chiton whose pleats are shown below the belt. Or would you say it is the chiton with adornments? The upper part looks like an armoured jerkin for me. And it reminds me at the same time a bit of the other suspicious chitons.
And even if all the "pleats below and wavy above" garments are just two parts of the same chiton, its appearance is totally different to that garment in the picture posted from Kai and also in the picture with the three warriors posted from you, Giannis. They wear narrow upper garments which lack the bulky appearance of the "wavy" or pleated chitons. The curved lines at the belly, looking quite different compared with the lines of the bulky chitons (which show exactly that: the bulk which results from drawing up the chiton over the belt), for me clearly indicates separate upper garments, like leather or linen or maybe felt or wooly vests/overchitons.
In the end I think no interpretation can be set as a dogma.
Btw: your chiton looks great, Giannis. Did you only drape it for the picture or are the pleats stitched in some way?
Also you did already post two pictures which I wanted to show, Giannis.
In some of your pictures (and some others I have here) it is clearly seen that the chiton was also depicted with pleats above the belt which correpond with those below. That could be a hint that it is not the upper part of the chiton itself when it is shown without pleats but in the "wavy" manner instead. So I interprete the same pictures in just another way. :wink:
In the one of your pictures (with the quarrel between Aias and Odysseus about Achills armour) the depicted chitons interestingly do not show pleats at the lower end. Are it perhaps chitons from a thicker material? And do you see the second line parallel to the lower hem? Could be a reeding or another garment over the chiton; it is too low to be part of the normal bulk at the waist (it is perhaps just overinterpretation to mention the second line, I admit).
Of course one could say that the different appearance was only a different technique to show the same fact. However I see a little reason for distrust this theory when I find the both methods together in one picture, like in pic 1 below. All three divine persons in the foreground show the pleated lower end of a chiton in exactly the same way. The figures on the right and on the left have corresponding pleated chiton ends (wrong sleeves I presume) at the arm holes. But Hermes in the centre shows the "wavy" upper part appearance. Why did the artist chose this way if not another material/ upper garment should be shown?
And there are some other pictures even in my small data source which show warriors with "pleats below and pleats above" together with warriors with "pleats below and wavy above".
And let's take a look to pic 2: I am really not able to interprete the upper part as a part of the chiton whose pleats are shown below the belt. Or would you say it is the chiton with adornments? The upper part looks like an armoured jerkin for me. And it reminds me at the same time a bit of the other suspicious chitons.
And even if all the "pleats below and wavy above" garments are just two parts of the same chiton, its appearance is totally different to that garment in the picture posted from Kai and also in the picture with the three warriors posted from you, Giannis. They wear narrow upper garments which lack the bulky appearance of the "wavy" or pleated chitons. The curved lines at the belly, looking quite different compared with the lines of the bulky chitons (which show exactly that: the bulk which results from drawing up the chiton over the belt), for me clearly indicates separate upper garments, like leather or linen or maybe felt or wooly vests/overchitons.
In the end I think no interpretation can be set as a dogma.
Btw: your chiton looks great, Giannis. Did you only drape it for the picture or are the pleats stitched in some way?
Wolfgang Zeiler
