05-07-2007, 12:27 PM
Sorry, guys, still not convinced !
Dan:-
1.See previous threads. Would you argue that "cuirass" - derived from french "cuir" means all chest protectors were made of leather when clearly the majority were metal ? "What's in a name? " (Shakespeare)
ditto the term "linothorax" ! In a thousand years, the term almost certainly changed meaning. Moreover there is little/no evidence for it's use 500b.c -400b.c. - see Duncan Head et al pp8-10 'Linothorax again cited earlier.
2. Quite right ! So you concede there is no 'contemporary evidence, then ?
3.So it may be that some flax was grown in classical Greece then? Even so, like grain, not enough to meet the needs of the many Poleis. The bulk was likely imported , therefore expensive. Dilutes my hypothesis, maybe, but doesn't negate it. Why is everyone carefully avoiding the Thucydides/ Xenophon/ Spartan/ contemporary connection ?
4. Fair point, once raw linen was imported, the weaving 'en masse' part was within the means of almost all households.So was Leather making !
"Leather provides worse protection than layered textiles - to use your term "bollocks" but I would prefer not to use inflammatory language. Do you have information on the energy/force of contemporary spears/arrows - I do! Leather provides adequate protection for the purpose under discussion and in any event the Thorakes was not intended to be weapon proof and wasn't (I can expand on this if we wish to digress).
Leather is not cheaper than layered textiles though rawhide may have been - what is your evidence for this? We cannot even determine the overall costs of "Hoplar"/arms armour.
Leather armour is not mentioned in any classical Greek text - Yes it is! Xenophon and others refer to the Spolas and all agree that this refers to a leather garment/armour worn over the torso, in particular by Spartans/Lakedaemonians.
Leather armour cannot be demonstrated in any iconographical evidence - disagree the iconographical evidence cannot be identified with any certainty, in fact if we were to go by this alone we could not even say it was textile and the only archaeological recovery of this type is from Phillip of Macadonia's tomb and this is iron!
To Tarbicus ; You haven't detracted from my point - the proportion is still the same - compared to the millions of items manufactured, very little survives. If you are saying, as you appear to do, that you cannot compare modern to ancient because circumstances were different then Q.E.D. - I refer you to my earlier points !
Lastly,Dan, your source would appear to indicate that flax, with it's large water requirement could only be grown in a small part of Greece, as I suggested, and surely not enough to supply all the greek poleis with enough linen to armour the entire citzenry of each? Despite easy access to Western Greece, the typical armour of Lakedaemon was apparently the leather 'Spolas'? Q.E.D ???
Good night all ! Time for bed !
regards, Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
Dan:-
1.See previous threads. Would you argue that "cuirass" - derived from french "cuir" means all chest protectors were made of leather when clearly the majority were metal ? "What's in a name? " (Shakespeare)
ditto the term "linothorax" ! In a thousand years, the term almost certainly changed meaning. Moreover there is little/no evidence for it's use 500b.c -400b.c. - see Duncan Head et al pp8-10 'Linothorax again cited earlier.
2. Quite right ! So you concede there is no 'contemporary evidence, then ?
3.So it may be that some flax was grown in classical Greece then? Even so, like grain, not enough to meet the needs of the many Poleis. The bulk was likely imported , therefore expensive. Dilutes my hypothesis, maybe, but doesn't negate it. Why is everyone carefully avoiding the Thucydides/ Xenophon/ Spartan/ contemporary connection ?
4. Fair point, once raw linen was imported, the weaving 'en masse' part was within the means of almost all households.So was Leather making !
"Leather provides worse protection than layered textiles - to use your term "bollocks" but I would prefer not to use inflammatory language. Do you have information on the energy/force of contemporary spears/arrows - I do! Leather provides adequate protection for the purpose under discussion and in any event the Thorakes was not intended to be weapon proof and wasn't (I can expand on this if we wish to digress).
Leather is not cheaper than layered textiles though rawhide may have been - what is your evidence for this? We cannot even determine the overall costs of "Hoplar"/arms armour.
Leather armour is not mentioned in any classical Greek text - Yes it is! Xenophon and others refer to the Spolas and all agree that this refers to a leather garment/armour worn over the torso, in particular by Spartans/Lakedaemonians.
Leather armour cannot be demonstrated in any iconographical evidence - disagree the iconographical evidence cannot be identified with any certainty, in fact if we were to go by this alone we could not even say it was textile and the only archaeological recovery of this type is from Phillip of Macadonia's tomb and this is iron!
To Tarbicus ; You haven't detracted from my point - the proportion is still the same - compared to the millions of items manufactured, very little survives. If you are saying, as you appear to do, that you cannot compare modern to ancient because circumstances were different then Q.E.D. - I refer you to my earlier points !
Lastly,Dan, your source would appear to indicate that flax, with it's large water requirement could only be grown in a small part of Greece, as I suggested, and surely not enough to supply all the greek poleis with enough linen to armour the entire citzenry of each? Despite easy access to Western Greece, the typical armour of Lakedaemon was apparently the leather 'Spolas'? Q.E.D ???
Good night all ! Time for bed !
regards, Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
