Tribune Impression and Muscle Curiass ?

[Theodosius the Great]

Now some comments.

The masada loricae look good in terms of anatomy, but as usual, are undecorated, so it's hard to tell. Also, the picture quality is really fuzzy.

Yeah, sorry about the quality (digital camera). The movie's not out on DVD yet.

I think they're the best musculatae I've ever seen on film - they look like they even have the "love handles" (something that's always/often missing in reconstructions as you say, Travis).

In your opinion...

1.) Is the sculpture representative of actual armor, or is it more stylized than actual armor? Specifically, would we really see armor like this on a campaign or is it just for show? Or in other words are we only looking at showpiece examples of the musculata?

2.) Even if this stuff is somewhat atypical, it's the only real evidence we've got. How does a re-enactor balance the issues of questionable evidence against even more questionable speculation? Or in other words, is it better to base your kit after a genuine fake rather that a realistic fantasy?

For me the answer to both is : it depends on what your goal is. If you're aiming for parade armor then go with imperial sculpture. If you want fuctional armor then base your reconstruction on something like the column of Trajan or M. Aurelius. I think nothing is more indicative of everyday campaigning than those two columns and they show the Emperor and his legates wearing musculate without the abdominal section and without elaborate decoration. My goal is the latter.

Tarbicus,

Great picture. That's probably the finest reconstruction of the Prima statue I've ever seen hock: . It even has hinges on both sides.

[Theodosius the Great]

Whenever we find traces of paint of these loricatae, the paint is red or brown or green or blue. Not colors we would use if we were trying to mimic a metallic surface, polished or otherwise. Marble statuary, unlike bronze statuary that was polished or gilt for it's luxurious effect, was painted to resemble life, so I think it may be a more reliable standard for how things really looked.

So they looked something like this :


[url:9mwbv103]http://www.niximperial.biz/collection_3_2.html[/url]

I think it's all the more likely that it's parade armor because wasn't the emperor supposed to paint his face red while riding in the chariot during a triumph ? That said, he would be most colorful indeed when wearing this painted armor hock: Maybe it was to make him as conspicuous as possible to the crowd ? Kinda overkill if you ask me :wink:

[jsantell]

Are there any examples of steel musculata? I was thinking about attempting one but don't have any brass of that size on hand, lots of 18 gauge steel though! What are your thoughts? p.s. my "Greece and Rome at War" page 308 plate 9 shows a legate with what appears to be a steel breastplate.

[tlclark]

Steel plate seems logical. Steel is MUCH harder to render repousse in however, but I know that there is some.

However, there is NO evidence for steel cuirasses. There is the iron cuirass from the so-called "Tomb of Philip II" in Vergina, but the debate rages on whether that is ritual or usable, and the context and period is too far rremoved to be of much use to us.

I just don't know, and without any direct evidence I wouldn't hazard a guess.

Travis.

[Caballo]

Travis,

Thought you should see this one ! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... %3AIT&rd=1

Cheers

Britannicus

[tlclark]

Jared and Britannicus:

Thanks for the references...

I will be incorporating these into my guide page sometime soon.

Thanks!

Travis

[Theodosius the Great]

Hi Travis,

I thought you might be interested in seeing this lorica musculata made by Manning Imperial :

[url:1myor5bv]http://www.manningimperial.com/item.php?item_id=329[/url]

You can view it from 5 different angles. It has : a neck guard, hinges on BOTH sides, and hinges on the shoulders but without harnesses.

[tlclark]

Hi Travis,

I thought you might be interested in seeing this lorica musculata made by Manning Imperial :

[url:15k25whm]http://www.manningimperial.com/item.php?item_id=329[/url]

You can view it from 5 different angles. It has : a neck guard, hinges on BOTH sides, and hinges on the shoulders but without harnesses.

On the quick.

No love handles or decoration, Musculature, good, but very symmetrical, stylistic, particularly in the abdominals, but hey at least they don't put a 12 pack where there should be only 6.

Likewise I like the neckguard but the front looks a little high cut, wonder if it would chafe. And the hinges are great, except that they use rivets to secure them while most ancient models made the hinges intergal to the breast/back plate.

I would give this a B- in the lorica field, but that's got a pretty big curve. I'd give it an A for the Greek period, which, to be fair is what they are shooting for.

When are we going to get an armorer who "gets" love handles!! Many portly and slighty out of shape re-enactors are yearning for this, and not just for accuracy's sake!!

Travis

[Theodosius the Great]

When are we going to get an armorer who "gets" love handles!! Many portly and slighty out of shape re-enactors are yearning for this, and not just for accuracy's sake!!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Well, as I wear the short version as seen on Trajan's column, I think it can be sometimes justified.

BTW, Travis, do you know if officer's are commonly seen wearing their gladius slung on their left sides ?

[tlclark]

When are we going to get an armorer who "gets" love handles!! Many portly and slighty out of shape re-enactors are yearning for this, and not just for accuracy's sake!!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Well, as I wear the short version as seen on Trajan's column, I think it can be sometimes justified.

BTW, Travis, do you know if officer's are commonly seen wearing their gladius slung on their left sides ?

The short version is a sticky thing, since it never appears in official portraits in the round after the republican era.

On the Grand Camee d'France there are both types however. In all official portraiture, high ranks wear the full thing. Not sure what other evidence there is for its usage in art. It certainly isn't a fav in Imperial portraits however.

On the gladius.

Anyone above the rank of Tribune never wore a sword as near as I can tell. They sometimes carry a short staff as a legatus or the parazonium, emperors are never seen with a gladius as far as I know. There is a statue of Trajan Decius with an attic helmet, baldric and sword but it's a real oddball, and probably an intentional Greek anachronism, since he is otherwise nude.

Lower officers, Tribune and lower, is a big question. In sculpture in the round, there are very rarely any swords of any type and I never see anyone with a gladius.

In relief sculpture we some wearing them on the left, er I think, but I think they are slung on a baldric in the hellenic fashion, but I can't think of any example offhand, so don't quote me on that. I may be remembering wrong. Let me go check and give me a while. I'm still in Egypt and I will likely be incommunicado for the next two weeks.

Travis.

[Tarbicus]

Came across this. Not sure if it's been referred to before (probably has) but I'm posting it again as it visualises something Travis talks about:
The ancients: now available in colour

[Theodosius the Great]

Hi Travis,

I was watching Passion of the Christ again over Christmas and you know, I really like Pilate's lorica musculata.

How would you rate it as far as reconstructions go ?

[tlclark]

Hi Travis,

I was watching Passion of the Christ again over Christmas and you know, I really like Pilate's lorica musculata.

How would you rate it as far as reconstructions go ?

Wow. Didn't remember this one, I did remember that the leather segmentata were rubbish, however.

Well I'd need to watch it again, but the anatomy looks good and it looks like it has leather harness?!! Cool if true, but hard to tell. That means someone esle came to the same conclusion I did, but I can't see it that well. The disc decorated tongue pteruges are also accurate, I have serval images attesting to that style.

No decoration on the cuirass, and I don't like the way they handled the fringe on the pteruges.

Travis

[Marcus F.]

Came across this. Not sure if it's been referred to before (probably has) but I'm posting it again as it visualises something Travis talks about:
The ancients: now available in colour

I've seen that exhibition myself about two years ago. Here are some more pictures:
http://www.benno-kuppler.de/benno_kuppl ... ter_01.htm
http://www.benno-kuppler.de/benno_kuppl ... ter_02.htm
http://www.benno-kuppler.de/benno_kuppl ... ter_03.htm
http://www.benno-kuppler.de/benno_kuppl ... ter_04.htm
http://www.benno-kuppler.de/benno_kuppl ... ter_04.htm

[Theodosius the Great]

the anatomy looks good and it looks like it has leather harness?!! Cool if true, but hard to tell. That means someone esle came to the same conclusion I did, but I can't see it that well.

Uh..well...yes and no. For some reason they have leather in between the shoulder plates and the lorica. Interesting. Here's a better picture :