Padded Armour

[Theodosius the Great]

Hey, VERY nice, Travis I like how it ties together on the sides.

Will it be padded ?

Will it be all one piece with additional layers of pteruges attached ?

In other words, will any pteruges be of the same piece of material as the subarmalis ?

Faventianvs is right. I used a fan pattern for the shoulders.

[tlclark]

Remember that the shoulder pteruges should be in avantail form otherwise, when worn on, they'll all converge.

Actually, I think they SHOULD converge.

When I look at the statuary, they are often overlapping and bound up on each other.

Check this out:

http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica ... det18a.jpg

The pteruges are all a jumble. This is the norm, only by the Antonine period do they start laying down in nice neat rows, and that's the same time period the side seams start to disappear, so it's much harder to get at what's real, and what's style.

I think that the pteruges are cut parallel and that the armhole opening of the lorica cinches the pteruges together near their base forcing them into a cone-like shape. It makes them very dense and overlapping.

I know most don't make their shoulder pteruges this way, but that's because I think they are using far too few pteruges - only 6-12 per shoulder. Just counting them in the primaporta example above there are easily 30-40 pteruges per shoulder! This is by no means atypical. Kilts of pteruges have about 60-80 and shoulders have about 20-40 EACH SHOULDER. Part of this is a matter of scale. I measured some pteruges on the statues as best as I could using my finger as a reference. On the statuary, the pteruges are about 1 3/4 - 2 1/2" wide. That's about the size most re-enactors make them, that's about 6-10 pteruges across the front of an average sized man, with 6-10 more across the back. When you count the pteruges on the statuary it is clearly more.

The difference is scale. The statuary is larger than life size, by about 10-30% at times. That means that the real pteruges should be scaled down to actual human dimensions, making pteruges about 1 - 1 1/2" wide. At that side, it's easy to get about 18 to 20 across the front. My pattern has 20 across the kilt and 14 for each arm. Doubled that will make 28 for each shoulder and 80 total for the kilt. That seems like a lot, but I think it's what we are seeing. The shoulder pteruges on my pattern are 1" each, and the kilt ones are 1 1/4".

When you have that many, they don't overlapp as easily and there are enough to force them into the right shape and it "looks" right. I did this with heavy construction paper just to see, but only a full scale model will prove me right or wrong.

So it's a risk, as I know the fan-shaped works, but I am going to cut them parallel and see what happens.

Wish me luck!

Travis

[tlclark]

Hey, VERY nice, Travis I like how it ties together on the sides.

Will it be padded ?

Will it be all one piece with additional layers of pteruges attached ?

In other words, will any pteruges be of the same piece of material as the subarmalis ?

Faventianvs is right. I used a fan pattern for the shoulders.

Yes, yes, and yes.

Basically, I will be making two thin subarmalia, and will be stitching them together, with the padding inbetween. Each subarmalis will have a layerd construction to allow each pteruged to be integral to the subarmalis, with a cloth covering, felt padding on both sides and a cloth core that makes the fringe (though in the making I may use some "cheats" to save time/money on construction

Travis

[Theodosius the Great]

The pteruges are all a jumble. This is the norm, only by the Antonine period do they start laying down in nice neat rows

Wow, didn't know that.

BTW, Travis, which period are you aiming for ? Pre-Antonine ?

I think your subarmalis will be the most sophisticated type ever attempted.

The best of luck to you, 8)

[tlclark]

The pteruges are all a jumble. This is the norm, only by the Antonine period do they start laying down in nice neat rows

Wow, didn't know that.

BTW, Travis, which period are you aiming for ? Pre-Antonine ?

I think your subarmalis will be the most sophisticated type ever attempted.

The best of luck to you, 8)

Thanks!

Of course, I can only guess on what a real subarmalis should have looked like, but, I can make some solid suggestions based on what I think it might have looked like, especially the pteruges which are the most obvious part.

I am shooting for a subarmalis from the "golden age" of loricata, From the late Julio-claudian period up through the reign of Hadrian., probably closer to hadrian.

Oh! another part about the pteruges. Another factor is where the pteruges start. If they start far out on the shoulder, then they will tend to converge, if they start farther back, the shoulder itself helps to spread and separate them.

It all depends on how far on the padding of the subarmalis is under the shoulder.

If the padding goes out far onto the shoulder, then the pteruges are relatively short and just hang out under the armor.

I think the opposite might be true, that the shoulder pteruges are actually quite long, and start far back under the armor.

Travis

[Crispvs]

Travis,

As a suggestion to add to your design, based on my experience of wearing armour for prolonged periods, I would recommend including extra padding on the shoulders, as this is where most of the weight of the armour will rest. I would also recommend adding a similar amount of extra padding to the upper chest, as armour will tend to rest on the chest as well as the shoulders. Whilst marching Hadrian's wall I found that my chest was sorer than my shoulders. I had sewn in extra padding for the shoulders but I had not thought to do the same for the chest.

Crispvs

[FAVENTIANVS]

Good luck Travis and post pics of your results please.

[Flavius Promotus]

As a suggestion to add to your design, based on my experience of wearing armour for prolonged periods, I would recommend including extra padding on the shoulders, as this is where most of the weight of the armour will rest.

This is a very reasonable piece of advice!

[adamparsons]

This is a really informative and friendly discussion guys- well done, we're all loving it!

have you though of layering-

(outside) linen/felt/linen for fringes (inside) with the felt being maybe 2/8th thick

maybe I'm not getting it- please feel free to correct me- but the fringes as you have discussed look like they are from a seperate underlying layer but does this mean there HAS to be as many layers on the inside of your core as the outside? I wasn't sure from the pictures of the sculptures you have posted, but I couldn't see any firm proof either way.

The only reason I say this is if each layer was thinner like this, it would be easier to do 3/4 complete sets with fringes, thus creating the huge numbers often seen on sculpture, without ending up with the body part made of 8+ layers of felt.

I hope to have a go at making one of these myself this year so this has been really usefull

cheers again for the great thread!
Adam

[Caballo]

"I would also recommend adding a similar amount of extra padding to the upper chest, as armour will tend to rest on the chest as well as the shoulders. "

Another thought building on Crispus's point re padding on the sternum- a number of contact sports such as rugby and American football also have padding here, as a blow to the sternum can wind the individual . So padding here may be both for comfort and protection?
Rugby at:-
http://www.roksport.com/acatalog/KooGa_ ... rpads.html
American football at:-
http://www.douglaspads.com/pc/catalog/CPQBK_r1_b.jpg

[tlclark]

Travis,

As a suggestion to add to your design, based on my experience of wearing armour for prolonged periods, I would recommend including extra padding on the shoulders, as this is where most of the weight of the armour will rest. I would also recommend adding a similar amount of extra padding to the upper chest, as armour will tend to rest on the chest as well as the shoulders. Whilst marching Hadrian's wall I found that my chest was sorer than my shoulders. I had sewn in extra padding for the shoulders but I had not thought to do the same for the chest.

Crispvs

Thanks! will do.

A question. My gut reaction here, is that the subarmalia (at least as it works with the musculata - not certain about other armor types) is that is based on a linothorax. If that's the case, the shoulders should be a separate yoke, more like this.



Do you think it would make more sense to add the shoulder padding and pieces as a separate piece?

Travis

[FAVENTIANVS]

What's the arm flap for?

[tlclark]

This is a really informative and friendly discussion guys- well done, we're all loving it!

have you though of layering-

(outside) linen/felt/linen for fringes (inside) with the felt being maybe 2/8th thick

maybe I'm not getting it- please feel free to correct me- but the fringes as you have discussed look like they are from a seperate underlying layer but does this mean there HAS to be as many layers on the inside of your core as the outside?

When you see these up close, they have edging around all three sides, front and back.

Now, we can't be certain, but it seems we have exterior layers around a cloth core, like a sandwich, like this.

The only reason I say this is if each layer was thinner like this, it would be easier to do 3/4 complete sets with fringes, thus creating the huge numbers often seen on sculpture, without ending up with the body part made of 8+ layers of felt.

Yeah this is a problem that I have. Aitor thinks that the ammount of layers I have suggested is getting ridiculous and I am inclined to agree with him. I am working on the assumption that the pteruges are integral, as in the linothorax. If that's the case, it makes the layering really complicated, but I may find some work arounds.

Bascially I think the evidence supports two things for certain.

1.) Woven or cloth-faced pteruges sandwiched around a cloth core manifested by the fringe and edged or sewn around three edges, the fringe being the natural by-product of a woven method.

2.) Multiple layers of pteruges.

There are two other things that I think are suggested by the evidence, but not necessarily proven.

2.) pteruges and a subarmalis that are integral, like the linothorax
3.) A subarmalis body that has the same basic sandwich construction as the pteruges.

Thanks,

Travis

[tlclark]

What's the arm flap for?

It's a feature found on a few subarmalia. It sticks out of the armhole of the lorica, and folds down over the armor to prevent the armor from catching and chafing.

Here's a few examples:

http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica/parts.htm#flaps

[Tarbicus]

Would it be silly to suggest, bearing in mind the comments about padding and stresses on the shoulders and chest, to close the pattern so there is a complete hole, and when folded over it's long enough to double up on the chest?

Hope you don't mind me butchering your pic :?



In fact, you could have the 2 halves, left to right, the same (the left half without shoulder pteryges) and this would also give a double layer for the upper body?