Padded Armour

[Martin Wallgren]

Oh sorry! I realize I´m off topic too! Maybe a Moderator could splitt the tread in its three parts or restart two new. Beacause I think they are all good ones!

Again I apologise for the OT!

Martin

[aitor iriarte]

Oh no, Martin, I wasn't speaking as a moderator but you're right about the Visby sub-thread! :wink:
Unfortunately, threads cannot be split, therefore I suggest that Jyrki could start a new thread on the Off-Topic section. I own the re-print of the excellent pre-WW2 publication of the Visby finds. Bear in mind that all those plate armours were intended to be sewn over/under fabric or leather jerkins.

Aitor

[tlclark]

Update on some of my reconstruction efforts.

I offer here three hypothetical patterns for a subarmalis with pteruges attached.

http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/pictur ... ttern1.jpg
http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/pictur ... ttern2.jpg
http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/pictur ... ttern3.jpg

All are based on the assumption that the subarmalis - and I am principally concerned here with the subarmalis used with the musculata - follows a basic pattern based on the late hellenistic/republican linothorax, since the pteruges look very much like the late hellenistic variety.

The subarmalis might have been closed in a number of fashions, and I have created three possible methods, although it is possible that the shoulder padding might have been a separate piece as in the yoke for the linothorax.

Some justifications for some of my decisions:

The neckhole is square as most of the musculatae have square neckholes and we can't see the subarmalis under the neckline. It is also lower in the front as on most of the musculata.

It would most likely be closed by laces or ties, but not buckles or fasteners.

The arm flap sticks out of armhole and folds down over the armor to protect the wearer from chafing.

Couple of observations on the pteruges.

Since we never see how the pteruges are attached to the subarmalis in the statuary, the pteruges must extend fairly far back under the armor.

My best guess on how this was contructed is that it was composed of several layers. Most examples in the staturay show not one but at least two, and in some cases four layers of pteruges. To create this effect you would only have to create two layers, based on the patterns above, and sew them together, perhaps with added padding inbetween, and then just let the pteruges hang down.

I think that the individual pteruges were also layered. Here's a couple of ideas on how these were constructed.

http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/pictur ... uction.jpg
http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/pictur ... ction2.jpg

I am working on a more detailed pattern showing how all the layers might have been put together.

And of course when I get the time and money, I am going to try to make one.

Travis

[arklore70]

Travis,
your first conceptual pattern is about exactly how I made my subarmalis the other week but with out the pteruges. I wear a Lorica Hamata and I did not find it necessary to tie or close off the flaps, although I think you might have to with a Lorica Segmentata or a Lorica Musculata.

I found the weight of the mail and the way it hangs on my person to be enough to keep it in place and from bunching up. I did have to roll up my mail initially though to straighten it out a bit after I had slipped it over my head and hooked up my doubler.

I wore my mail around the house for about 90 minutes to include doing some house work , jumping up and down in full kit, and going up the stairs a few times chasing after my dog, and breaking out the gladius for a few repetitive moves ( I have a room with absolutely nothing in it, so I safely get away with this ) I was comfortable and it never once shifted around on me.

Best yet, a non-crafty guy like me made it very quickly. I used a thin layer of felt sewn in between two layers of linen for padding.

Cheers!!
Mike

[tlclark]

Travis,
your first conceptual pattern is about exactly how I made my subarmalis the other week but with out the pteruges. I wear a Lorica Hamata and I did not find it necessary to tie or close off the flaps, although I think you might have to with a Lorica Segmentata or a Lorica Musculata.

Awesome!

Could you unfold it flat on the floor and take a picture of it?

Are there any tips/tricks/problems that you had while making it?

How thick was your felt?

I am planning on using several layers of 1/8th inch felt as a core, and then covering it with linen.

Travis

[Luca]

Dear Travis,

I'm reading all your post "secretly" and I admire your research, really.
I'm becoming crazy too on this matter, and overall my problems are the shoulder pteruges.

The only support I can give to you is an additional statue. I took a hi-res picture in Naples few weeks ago:

http://www.romanhideout.com/images/it/n ... relius.asp

Hope this can help, and in the future I hope also to be more helpful with some other ideas.

[tlclark]

Dear Travis,

I'm reading all your post "secretly" and I admire your research, really.
I'm becoming crazy too on this matter, and overall my problems are the shoulder pteruges.

The only support I can give to you is an additional statue. I took a hi-res picture in Naples few weeks ago:

http://www.romanhideout.com/images/it/n ... relius.asp

Hope this can help, and in the future I hope also to be more helpful with some other ideas.

Thanks for the compliments.

FABULOUS image!! Thanks! Grazie Mille!

The detail really does show that these were cloth or at least cloth faced. The texture is really fascinating.

One of the big problems is how the fringe is attached, with most suggesting that we are looking at a cloth core covered in either leather or felt with most re-enactors preferring leather.

Looking at these it looks to me as if it I have to consider another theory, that the pteruges are in fact, weft-faced woven bands in heavy wool.

I considered this over here on this thread.

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=6543

Here's what I said then.

Travis,
In fact i intend to use that colour scheme for my subarmalis project! :wink:
Anyway, do the colour of the pterugae on each row alternate or does the colour change on each layer (or both!)? :?

Aitor

Well, it looks like both! So you have two layers (although in truth there may be three layers!) of pteruges, each with alternating blue and red pteruges. Interesting thing though, the fringe on all of them is blue!

Now I have two thoughts. If the fringe is blue, that argues for a cloth core that is blue, BUT...

Let's just consider something CRAZY. What if the pteruges are woven wool? A weft faced pteruge would be very dense and heavy, and would only show the color of the weft, BUT the warp would make up the fringe and that would be the color of the warp threads, which in this case would be blue.

Could pteruges simple be a very heavy tablet or loom woven weft-faced strap?!

this would explain the 'cloth-like' texture on many of them, and the edging, which could clearly be a selvage or wrapped edge. It could explain all of the phenomena we see in the sculpture.

Travis

Looking at your example I think it lends credence to the theory above.

Thanks again!

Travis

[arklore70]

Travis,

No problem. I am a bit jammed up at work, give me a day or two.

Mike

[aitor iriarte]

Luca, Travis,
Bear in mind that only the upper portion of the pterugae on the Naples statue is ancient, the rest of the skirt (Fringes included! ) is a modern reconstruction. Anyway, they are clearly fabric or felt faced.
Travis, your diagrams are very enlightening. Notwithstanding, if the pterugae's piping would run independently for each of the sandwich's outer layer, that would have been reflected on the pteruga's edge, at least on the better quality depictions, which, AFAIK, doesn't happen.
What I was trying to stress about the Prima Porta soumak edging is that it can run along the three edges, binding the three layers together and STILL letting the fringes pass thorugh it! 8)
About your first subarmalis diagram, I think that if you'd let the front or back overlay the other at the side opening, then you would be able to attach a complete armpit flap, instead of halving it, besides reinforcing the weaker side areas.

Aitor

[Luca]

Thanks Aitor, I didn't know about the restoration, but after your remark, yes it is clearly visible, but the texture fortunately is visible also on the ancient part.
Of course no original fringes....

[arklore70]

Travis,I used two layers of linen and the felt is about 1/2 inch thick.. On the bottom layer of linen I sewed the felt through the linen to hold it into place.. I placed my gladius on top to kind of give you a perspective in scale. The felt stops at about my waistline/belt line.

Cheers!!

Mike

[/img] OK, how do you post a picture here? I got three to show.

[Tarbicus]

[/img] OK, how do you post a picture here? I got three to show.

Copy the URL of the image. Hit the 'Img' button once, paste the URL of the image, hit the 'Img' button again. It should look something like this before you submit your reply:



The image has to be online on the internet somewhere, it can't be pasted directly from your PC. If you don't have webspace try [url:m3whkis6]http://www.photobucket.com[/url] or ask Jasper if RAT can host the images for you.

[tlclark]

[/img] OK, how do you post a picture here? I got three to show.

Copy the URL of the image. Hit the 'Img' button once, paste the URL of the image, hit the 'Img' button again. It should look something like this before you submit your reply:



The image has to be online on the internet somewhere, it can't be pasted directly from your PC. If you don't have webspace try [url:15yg6lod]http://www.photobucket.com[/url] or ask Jasper if RAT can host the images for you.

Or you can e-mail me directly and send it to me as an attachment. My e-mail is in my profile.

Thanks,

Travis.

[John M McDermott]

This would seem to turn every theory I had about the defensive value of pteruges on their heads.

The weave is extemely large, indicating almost knitting. What could be the defensive value of such a large weave?

[tlclark]

A

This would seem to turn every theory I had about the defensive value of pteruges on their heads.

The weave is extemely large, indicating almost knitting. What could be the defensive value of such a large weave?

Actually, the weave is very large, but not loose. It's weft faced, which means that the weave is so tightly packed you can't see the warp at all. That could make a very heavy wool band, much like tablet weaving and I don't know if that would be effective or not, but it seems to me that it would. Weft-faced double weave is what is being used to make the bands of clavi on late tunics. This would just be very heavy clavi bands.

In any case it's clear that at the very least the pteruges are cloth faced. They may have had felt or leather cores that added further defensive value. Having seen a lot of pteruges, they seem more flexible than leather so I think they are cloth of laminate cloth.

One of the problems is the edging, which when you see it up close is really problematic since it seens to go around all three edges, but if that's the case, how does the fringe poke out the bottom? That implies a core of one material and two layers on both sides to make a pteruge "sandwich".

Looking at the weave like pattern on the pteruges, it made me think of weft-faced bands. In weaving, the fringe and edging could be naturally produced on the loom, this would greatly simplify their construction.

Travis