Flying Wedge banned from football

[marsvigilia]

I was telling an old friend about the debate regarding the effectiveness of the wedge.

My friend is not a fan of Rome but is an avid fan of football. He recalled that in the early days of football there was a mass momentum play called the "Flying Wedge" that was so effective at injuring the opposing team that it was banned.

[Caballo]

Correct- at RUGBY football! :lol:

[marsvigilia]

I've heard of rugby.
Isn't that some sort game some confused Brits invented when they couldn't understand the rules of real football? :wink:

[Tasciavanous]

Depends what you mean by real football, Union football also called Rugby football was the first codified version of the sport, but its precursors where far far more violent, I have researched the 17thC version of the game in detail and it was murder (well nearly) out there!
P.S. why the interest? is this back to the roman wedge or swine array field formation thing?

James

[Tarbicus]

in the early days of football there was a mass momentum play called the "Flying Wedge" that was so effective at injuring the opposing team that it was banned.

Sounds like proof of the pudding. Be it molecules in the edge of a knife, or bodies in a group, the same rules of mass and momentum apply when focused into a point against a static obstacle.

[marsvigilia]

Q: Why the interest?

All kidding about rugby aside.
I just found the banning of the "flying wedge" interesting.
I'm not a fan of sports and had never heard of it before.
It's just fascinating how parallels crop up in the most unexpected places.

[Muzzaguchi]

Hi All,

I think the flying wedge was banned because all the players in front of the ball and ball carryer were off-side. Or did they change the off-side rule in order to ban the wedge? I can't remember.

I had someone in one of my classes ask me about the use of the wedge by the Spartans at Thermopylae - ahh the movies ... Best not to put that in an exam answer I replied! Herodotus Richard Eagan is not! :lol:

Cheers

Murray

PS OT - Tony, it appears we have the same (unusual) surname. Mine is of Danish/Dutch extraction what about yours - There aren't many of us Dahms down under so to speak.

[Gaius Opius Fugi]

I'm not seeing how this really fits into reenacting or reconstructing the Roman soldier. Maybe I'm wrong, which is why I'm going to let it stay for now (see where it goes), but I believe this is better placed in the Off Topic board.

Vale,
Gaius Opius Fugi

[marsvigilia]

A while back there was an discussion about the probable effectiveness or lack thereof of the Romans using a wedge formation to breakthrough enemy lines. Some in the pro-wedge camp sited the use of the wedge in SCA reenactments. If I recall correctly, the anti-wedge camp thought that the leading man would not be sufficiently strengthened by the followers and would be an exposed week point.

I just found the football parallel worth noting.

The reason for banning could be significant. If opposing side injuries were the reason for the ban, it would help substantiate the effectiveness of the technique.

I may occasionally drift off topic. But I think this was reasonably on point.

[Gaius Opius Fugi]

Ah, yes, I remember that discussion. Just didn't see the connection. I'll let it stay, though I do feel that some sources other than modern ones wouldn't hurt the discussion.

Cheers,
Gaius Opius Fugi

[marsvigilia]

Well the Flying Wedge was banned during the early 1900's that is hardly modern. ;-) )

[Tarbicus]

Here's further proof of the effectiveness of the wedge/'flyinh wedge' :

By the 1890s interlocking offensive formations such as the flying wedge and the practice of teammates physically dragging ball-carrying players forward had made the game extremely dangerous. Despite restrictions on the flying wedge and other precautions, in 1905 eighteen players were killed in games. President Theodore Roosevelt informed the universities that the game must be made safer. To force them to respond to his concerns, he threatened to pressure Congress to make playing football a federal crime.

[url:3rjhsetx]http://forums.stupid-boy.com/Rugby_vs_Football-t16308-s15.html[/url]

So, not only was it possible for a wedge to push aside the enemy, but it could also cause injury and fatality by itself. As the Roman (and Greek) intention was that as much damage be caused to the enemy as possible, do you not think it likely it was a popular formation to use?

[Hibernicus]

Wedge SCA style

It has been my experience that a flying wedge SCA style only works against a less disciplined loose formation opponent... AND that the lead elements take serious "damage"

Against an opponent who is massed in depth or resists the impetous of the running sharge, it is totally useless

Against an opponent who is somewhat disciplined he can effectively "let you in" by deliberately/selectively falling back... "surrounding" you on two sides.. and the lead individual is taking blows from three sides, not just one.

Single man leading wedge is a terrible formation.. column charges work better but are also easy to stop... unit formations (triangles, diamonds, echeloned) work even better..

+++++

Rugby wedge .. see maul or scrum

Old American football wedge which allows blocking put the ball carrier in the center of a 6 man formation (typical).... all players interlocked as in a scrum or maul.. stopped because in the olden days it gave teams with human mountains a serious advantage in advancing the ball....

[Hibernicus]

Brief article...

http://www.the-game.org/history-flyingwedge.htm

[Tarbicus]

It has been my experience that a flying wedge SCA style only works against a less disciplined loose formation opponent... AND that the lead elements take serious "damage". Against an opponent who is massed in depth or resists the impetous of the running sharge, it is totally useless

Is that against opponents who are similarly armoured and have similar shields? If the opponents had lighter shields and armour, or even no armour, how do you think that would work out? Also, if the 'men mountains' were at the point leading a wedge against a loosely formed and undisciplined enemy do you think it could be successful without being a 'Pyhrric victory'?

Cheers.