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Lucius Aurelius Metellus · 03-16-2005, 01:30 AM

Can anyone recommend a good dealer for a decent Roman patera frying pan replica for me, other than the one by Deepeeka? Thanks so much! Lucius Aurelius Metellus, draconarius, Secunda Brittanica 
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Crispvs · 03-16-2005, 01:41 AM

Try Len Morgan. I haven't seen him do any for a while but I am sure he would do one if you asked. Unlike the cheap brass Dipeeka version, Len's are properly cast in bronze. 
 
Crispvs

Daniel S Peterson · 03-16-2005, 12:58 PM

Yes, Len's cast paterae is very nice, and I regret that I lost mine when it detached from my saddle during the Junkelmann Limes march. 
 
But Crispus, believe it or not, thin spun brass/bronze Paterae are just as authentic as cast ones, though in the case of the Deepeeka one, it is improperly made and not designed by me. Deepeeka does have a sample of a very authentic spun Paterae as you can see in the camp scenes of my book, but they have not made it yet, probably because people are still buying their bad one. 
 
I have a beautiful original spun Patera of Augustan date which is lighter than the deepeeka model, as well as a cast one. If you look carefully at these in books you will see that many are of the lightweight variety, probably the majority. Because of the weight considerations, it is most probable that Roman soldiers preferred the lightweight versions, and hopefully Deepeeka will someday copy mine. 
 
Ironically however, if the original poster wants a Paterae for a late Roman (4th-5th century) impression, though far from perfect, the current Deepeeka paterae is actually more authentic in basic shape and style than Len's would be! On my next trip to India I will have their current Paterae modified into an authentic Late Roman model. 
 
Also Crispus, the Romans used a great deal of "brass", particularly so in Imperial times. Besides military equipment, it was also used in the coinage of the large Sestersius coins, probably to quickly differentiate them from the slightly smaller copper Ass coins. The Romans called the metal "Orichulum". 
 
Dan

Mithras · 03-16-2005, 04:09 PM

Lucius, are you sure that patera were used by Late troops? Not 'sure', that's a bit stiff, I mean what's the considered opinion? Comitatus do not use them. By 400AD patera like that appear in Britain as religious ware, but in just the same way that we use civillian boots, civillian leg-wraps and civillian single-edged knives, I reckon state-made patera would simply be replaced by any locally-made skillet or frying pan in brass or iron. Paul Elliott/Caius Fortunatus 
 
3rd Century Auxiliary (Cohors Quinta Gallorum) 
 
4th Century Legionnary (Comitatus) 
 
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03-16-2005, 05:27 PM

This is an interesting piece obtained from somewhere in England a few years back. Yes, it is the same patera from the Legion XX website. And yes, it is my patera. After several months of investigation, I believe it's source is either Salisbury or Bath. A local metalsmith made some copies from the patera located in the British Museum, as I am told. 
At the present time, he is not interested in making any more like it, but that may change in the future. I'll keep you posted. 
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v734/Dillylog/patera1.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
 
Tiberius 
LEG~XX

Lucius Aurelius Metellus · 03-16-2005, 05:57 PM

Hi Paul, 
Yes, according to Mr. Daniel Peterson, patera were still widely used in late Roman times. I have had some discussion with him (although not as in-depth as I would like) on this subject, and he assures me that they were indeed still used, and that the late Roman models only differed slightly from the earlier models (see Dan's post above). 
I would be interested to see photos of some late Roman examples, just because I'd be fascinated to see what they looked like, not because I doubt Dan's word. I trust Dan's authority on this subject, after all, he (in my opinion) is one of the world's top-notch Roman military historians and researchers. 
Dan, if you get a chance, can you post some photos of the late patera for us? Lucius Aurelius Metellus, draconarius, Secunda Brittanica 
www.greeneknightforge.bravehost.com Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=luciusaureliusmetellus@romanarmytalk>Lucius Aurelius Metellus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Lucius68/LuciusClose-Up.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 3/16/05 6:59 pm

Daniel S Peterson · 03-17-2005, 06:37 AM

Paul, 
It is interesting that you do say the Romans still used "brass or iron skillets" in late Roman times, so since when is a Roman "brass" skillet NOT a Paterae? This is the very defination in latin of a handled skillet, whether it be the very shallow type used in religious ceremonies, or the deeper type used in cooking. As the saying goes, a rose by any other name is still a rose, and likewise, a paterae as well. In fact, handled bronze skillets continued on into Medieval times, and if a Roman, 1st century or 4th, and any time in between, were to see a modern cast iron "frying pan", he would probably call it a Paterae as well. In latin they would still be called a Paterae, though they had other names too, depending on their origin. Yes the late Romans still used handled bronze skillets just as the early Romans did. I suppose it is up to you what you want to call this utensil though I strongly suspect the Late Romans still called them "Paterae". For though they differ slightly in style, (as is to be expected after a span of several hundred years), nevertherless they are still the same utensil, both the shallow libation type, and the deeper cooking type. 
 
Lucius, as I said, I have many photos of the late Roman cooking type Paterae/handled bronze skillets. I will try to scan some pictures at work, and see if Rich the administratror will post them, though I have been trying to get him to put my personal photo back on Rat for the past six months without success so can make no guranteee he will post the paterae pics either. (Perhaps on orders of the RAT queen???) 
 
Dan

Carlton Bach · 03-17-2005, 02:59 PM

Not to be nitpicky (oh, hell, who am I kidding. I love nitpicky), but wouldn't a Roman identify a frying pan as a sartago? I know of two found in military contexts, very much like modern ones (including one with a folding handle). Junkelmann says these would be 'suitable for field use' ("fÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¼r den Feldgebrauch gut geeignet"), but I doubt it. For one thing they are also regularly found in civilian contexts, and for another, you can fry in a skillet or the bottom of a pot, why carry an iron pan on top of that?

Lucius Aurelius Metellus · 03-17-2005, 05:50 PM

Although I called it a patera/frying pan in my previous posts, what I am actually looking for is a vessel similar or identical to the one shown in Tiberius' photo above. I like the decorative incised lines in the handle, and its small size and fairly deep body would make it an ideal utensil for cooking and carrying on the move, which is what I want it for. Lucius Aurelius Metellus, draconarius, Secunda Brittanica 
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Lucius Aurelius Metellus · 03-17-2005, 06:35 PM

Here is a beautiful early original, found in the Cave of Letters in the Judaen desert (Israel). IIRC it dates from the Bar Kochba Rebellion. Of course, I don't want anything this ornate (or early), I particularly like the simple yet elegant reconstruction in the photo above, but I thought you might all enjoy seeing this example as well. 
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Lucius68/PaterafromtheCaveofLetters.jpg" style="border:0;"/> Lucius Aurelius Metellus, draconarius, Secunda Brittanica 
www.greeneknightforge.bravehost.com Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=luciusaureliusmetellus@romanarmytalk>Lucius Aurelius Metellus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Lucius68/LuciusClose-Up.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 3/17/05 7:39 pm

Gaius Octavius Drusus · 03-17-2005, 08:16 PM

Ave et salutatio: 
 
The patera you have was made by Michael Simkins. I have one of his also, along with a situla, a brass spoon and a pair of gaming dice. He does first-class work, but the last word I had from him is that he has left off making replicas for the time being. I don't know if he will be doing it again. 
 
Vale: 
 
Gaius

Daniel S Peterson · 03-18-2005, 12:56 AM

Lucius, 
As I said, the style of Roman Paterae/bronze handled skillets evolved over the years like everything else Roman. The Simkins skillet you admire is fine for the 1st and 2nd centuries, but would be out of place in the 4th or 5th. I guess you could say the soldier of your late Roman impression decided to use a 300 year old family heirloom to cook in, but this would be a bit unlikely, in fact just as absurd as using a Revolutionary War wooden drum canteen at a World War Two reenactment. But then, I suppose far fewer people can distinguish the period in which specific Roman cooking utensils were made. The specific Paterae posted from the Bar Kochba caves is of the type used in religious ceremonies rather than basic cooking, and it would be highly unlikely a legionary would be using it as a cooking utensil whether in the 2nd or 5th centuries A.D. 
 
You can find dozens of late Roman patera/skillets and other cooking utensils in the books about Romes enemies of the late Roman period, for they were buried with their captured Roman loot, and many had these. Once I get a scanner I can post pics of the many that are in my books. Perhaps there are enough interested late Romans out there now to have Deepeeka make an authentic 4th century one at the same time they will do the authentic 1st century Paterae - probably this September - barring another trip to Iraq. 
 
Dan

Crispvs · 03-18-2005, 04:36 AM

Dan, 
Thanks for your reply. One or two comments though. 
 
 
 
"But Crispus, believe it or not, thin spun brass/bronze Paterae are just as authentic as cast ones". 
 
I spoke with Lindsey Allison-Jones about paterae (or trullii if anyone prefers) a year or two back and she told me that paterae were normally cast and then filed down to a much lighter weight and thickness on a continuously rotating lathe, leaving only the rim, handle and base in their original thikness. I was already aware that Len's paterae are properly cast but sometimes are not pared down to the lighter weight. 
 
"Because of the weight considerations, it is most probable that Roman soldiers preferred the lightweight versions" 
 
See my comment above. 
 
"more authentic in basic shape and style than Len's would be!" 
 
As far as I know Len's paterae are designed for use by early Imperial period re-enactors. 
 
"Also Crispus, the Romans used a great deal of "brass", particularly so in Imperial times. Besides military equipment, it was also used in the coinage of the large Sestersius coins, probably to quickly differentiate them from the slightly smaller copper Ass coins. The Romans called the metal "Orichulum"." 
 
Yes, I was already aware that the Roman army used various types of brass extensively, as well as it being used for coinage. I am not one of those who refers to all varieties of copper alloy as 'bronze'. I seem to remember reading (off the top off my head I think it was Bishop and Coulston) that the patera was the only item of military equipment which was always made of bronze as opposed to brass of some sort. 
 
Crispvs

Ebusitanus · 03-18-2005, 09:49 AM

I have checked LenÃƒâ€šÃ‚Â´s web and there is no sign of any Patera being sold. Can someone direct me to the appropiate place since DeepeekaÃƒâ€šÃ‚Â´s seem to be not up to standards? 
 
Thanks

Lucius Aurelius Metellus · 03-18-2005, 11:17 AM

Well, I wrote to Len just the other day enquiring about his patera replicas, but as of yet I havn't had any reply from him. 
I am thinking about just ordering the Deepeeka model after all, since Dan feels that it would actually be closest to the patera a soldier from my time period might have had, plus the fact that Deepeeka's patera seems to be the only one readily available on the market. 
Dan, what could I do to the Deepeeka patera to make it more accurate for a late Patera? Are there any type of decorations on it at all, like the incised lines on the handle in Mr. Simkins replica? Deepeeka's photographs are not clear enough for me to be able to tell that much about it. Does anyone have a close-up photo of your Deepeeka patera? If so, could you post it so that I might see it? It might help me be able to tell what I need to do to "fix" it up. Heck, if I can modify it slightly, that would be fine. For the price, you can't beat it, and isn't modification the name of the game most of the time in our hobby, at least when it comes to buying ready-made equipment? I don't mind having to "tweak" it a little bit, working on Roman gear is fun to me. Lucius Aurelius Metellus, draconarius, Secunda Brittanica 
www.greeneknightforge.bravehost.com Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=luciusaureliusmetellus@romanarmytalk>Lucius Aurelius Metellus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Lucius68/LuciusClose-Up.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 3/18/05 1:40 pm

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