Advice on Post-Secondary Education

[Ariovistus]

Hello all,
Seeing as though this website is home to some of the most distinguished classicists and the like, I could think of no better place to seek advice. Obviously my love for history has transcended passion and borders obsession; although I do not post often, I scour this site for hours when I am not doing my own personal research or writing. Accordingly, I would love to pursue an education in the field of ancient history with an emphasis on military history. Currently I am a senior at a Northern Michigan high school (U.S.A., for those unfamiliar) and when asked what I want to study, my answer is classical studies. I am fairly certain about my decision, but is that the correct choice based on my interests? For an occupation I would like to teach (military) history at a high school or collegiate level as well as write. As for the school I plan to attend, I have received a full-ride scholarship to the University of Michigan and I am waiting on just a few more of the selective schools (mainly Ivies but I doubt my chances of getting in), if I am not mistaken Michigan has a superb humanities program.

I thank all of you for taking the time to read my laboriously long post and answering my questions, I am open to all suggestions. Please let me know what you did to get to where you are today and/or plan to do!

Thank you

Little after-note: I plan on pursuing at least a masters degree if not a doctorate, so undergrad at U of M and graduate school somewhere else is something that I am definitely considering.

[Hasdrubal]

Hello all,
Seeing as though this website is home to some of the most distinguished classicists and the like, I could think of no better place to seek advice. Obviously my love for history has transcended passion and borders obsession; although I do not post often, I scour this site for hours when I am not doing my own personal research or writing. Accordingly, I would love to pursue an education in the field of ancient history with an emphasis on military history. Currently I am a senior at a Northern Michigan high school (U.S.A., for those unfamiliar) and when asked what I want to study, my answer is classical studies. I am fairly certain about my decision, but is that the correct choice based on my interests? For an occupation I would like to teach (military) history at a high school or collegiate level as well as write. As for the school I plan to attend, I have received a full-ride scholarship to the University of Michigan and I am waiting on just a few more of the selective schools (mainly Ivies but I doubt my chances of getting in), if I am not mistaken Michigan has a superb humanities program.

I thank all of you for taking the time to read my laboriously long post and answering my questions, I am open to all suggestions. Please let me know what you did to get to where you are today and/or plan to do!

Thank you

Little after-note: I plan on pursuing at least a masters degree if not a doctorate, so undergrad at U of M and graduate school somewhere else is something that I am definitely considering.

I have a love of history as well. I wish you the best of luck and hopefully you get some good responses.

[richsc]

You might consider following the professors. Dr. Steve Tuck of Miami Ohio is a well respected classicist, and Miami is a hub of classics for the nation. UC Berkeley is also a center, as is Harvard, but you might consider looking at books you admire and see where the authors teach.

[Lyceum]

All right, I'll give you some actual good advice though it may sound a bit brusque and unpleasant. But at least it's true, even if it's largely plagiarised from professors I've known and worked with.

i) There is an off-putting naievete to claiming off the bat you want to work as an academic, which you've glossed as a teacher. It's not the same thing and many, many, talented Classicists get to the doctorate stage and decide that's not what they want to do. It's not at all like teaching in a school. Try to phrase this in terms of love for the discipline, and you'll do better.

ii) Military history. Honestly, not sure there's a lot of good work in this area...but that;s besides the point. The point is you've been exposed to a grand total of zero actual proper classical work so you've no idea yet what really interests you. Mark this down as an interest but don't go in blinkered. You often see people who've done Virgil almost ever year at school and love Latin hexameter go to uni and end up doing a doctorate on, say, what inscriptions tell us of 4th century Athenian shipping law.

So, to reiterate, it's important to have some specific interests but be warned these will and, frankly, should change throughout your education.

iii) University. Does it matter? You're not going to find the same kinds of classical departments in the US as you do in Europe, there's no real functional equivalent to places like OxBridge and London (though I'm taken with Princeton's work tbh, it does have a kind of similar emphasis). The focus on education is often more general with most of the skills Classicists need not taught until the doctorate stage. This is where you need to make a smart decision in trying to balance the best department with the best overall humanities track. Where you swing on this is upto you entirely, it's also best not to listen to Europeans since we have different emphasises.

iv) Michigan. I'm not sure how big a name this is, but they actually do have a few good professors. Richard Janko is there iirc, so are Ruth Scodel and Ben Fortson. So you know at least you should get a great introduction to Homer, Greek Lit, Plautus, Indo-European and so on. It will stand you in very good stead. For a Classics education. More generally? no idea.

The truth is you'll be well served by almost any good university, especially if you play your cards right. You mainly just need to finish with great Latin and Greek and a reading knowledge of at least two European languages for research. The only important thing is to keep a broad perspective and to work damn hard.

If you want more specific advice feel free to use the PM system.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

I wanted to do Classics too, but the money and jobs weren't there, so I decided not to do it because I didn't want to graduate 66,000 dollars in debt IF I could even get into school int he first place.

If you've got a full ride to University of Michigan, I'd say go there since it's free. Classics jobs are constantly declining. Dr. Zarecki in our legions said last year in the US there were 104 available jobs in the field of Classics, and most of them were 1-year positions, and that's down from 120-odd positions in 2011.

[Ariovistus]

You might consider following the professors. Dr. Steve Tuck of Miami Ohio is a well respected classicist, and Miami is a hub of classics for the nation. UC Berkeley is also a center, as is Harvard, but you might consider looking at books you admire and see where the authors teach.

Thanks for the names, I'll give them a look. I was also considering Fresno State for so long (although not the best academic school) because of Dr. Victor Davis Hanson, but unfortunately he retired and/or moved on. If you have not read any of his works or heard any of his lectures - do so. He is a visiting professor at Hillsdale College which is in my home state, but that does not give me enough reason to attend especially considering my ability to go to a prestigious school like Michigan literally for free.

[Timianus]

Just 2 cents from someone with a love of roman history that decided NOT to pursue the route you are contemplating when entering college. I also recently almost decided to quit my current profession and go back to school to pursue a career as a classics academic. So, here are my thoughts, but my info may be outdated:

1. As mentioned by another poster "teaching" is not the same as "being an academic." If you want to "be an academic" you have to love going through primary source documents and ultimately contribute something new and original to the state of knowledge for your discipline. So, you have to really like reading and interpreting Latin and Greek, and other European languages.

2. Both teaching and academic positions in humanities are increasingly rare and hyper competitive.

3. Then there are the politics of it. If you go through and pursue a PHd, you need to "hitch your wagon" with an established prof. who specializes in your area of interest and is willing to support your research and thesis.

4. Your income will be exceedingly low through this process, as your are looking at 4 years of college and then the same for post-grad work, depending on your program, requirements, and ultimate degree you pursue. While its easy to say "I don't care about money" when you are 18-19; when you are 25 and are married with a kid, the picture changes a bit.

5. That said, there is nothing wrong with pursuing a classics major as an undergrad if that is what you are interested in. The point I am trying to make is you can really like history, reading history books, and talking about history with others, but not necessarily be enthralled with the idea of pouring over ancient Latin and Greek texts that 1000 people have read before you to try and find some new and original insights.

6. My advice. Take as many different classes as you can while an undergrad and expose yourself to different disciplines. You may find something you love that you never considered before. By all means take classes in history, military history, and ancient Greece and Rome if that is what interests you. If being an academic is really what you want to do at the end of 4 years, then go for it. But, you might also find yourself at the end of 4 years (like me) with double majors in 2 different humanities subjects, a minor in classics, and be pursuing another profession while enjoying the latest biography on Augustus with a glass of wine over the weekend and checking Roman Army Talk on your breaks at the office.

[Hasdrubal]

I wanted to do Classics too, but the money and jobs weren't there, so I decided not to do it because I didn't want to graduate 66,000 dollars in debt IF I could even get into school int he first place.

If you've got a full ride to University of Michigan, I'd say go there since it's free. Classics jobs are constantly declining. Dr. Zarecki in our legions said last year in the US there were 104 available jobs in the field of Classics, and most of them were 1-year positions, and that's down from 120-odd positions in 2011.

You said what I basically said before I edited my post. I thought my post sounded rude so I modified it....a lot.

One of my good friends has a masters in Philosophy, and a BS in Ancient History. He has over 100K in student loan debt. He's been out of school for 2 years now. He's currently a manager at a Burger King. He's trying to land a teaching job, but it's very difficult to find one. The job offers he has had are below what he's making now.

[Dan Howard]

Don't do it! Pick a course that actually has a decent prospect of employment when you finish. That doesn't mean that you can't sneak a few History subjects into your course but don't waste time and money majoring in it. Once you have a career that is actually earning a decent living and you have paid off your student debts then you could consider going back to study History and perhaps change careers later on. At least you will have a fall-back position if it doesn't work out. Studying humanities when you first start college in the US is a good way to be debt-crippled for the rest of your life.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Hence why I picked Chemistry. STEM pays. Big. My future starting salary is twice what your salary would be with a PHD, and I'll only have a bachelor's.

[Hasdrubal]

Hence why I picked Chemistry. STEM pays. Big. My future starting salary is twice what your salary would be with a PHD, and I'll only have a bachelor's.

Yeah, I just have an A.A.S in robotics and electronics. I make 80K a year and doing very well for myself. Sounds like you're making the right choices.

Regardless I would love to do more in History, I just like nice expensive things.

[Hasdrubal]

Don't do it! Pick a course that actually has a decent prospect of employment when you finish. That doesn't mean that you can't sneak a few History subjects into your course but don't waste time and money majoring in it. Once you have a career that is actually earning a decent living and you have paid off your student debts then you could consider going back to study History and perhaps change careers later on. At least you will have a fall-back position if it doesn't work out. Studying humanities when you first start college in the US is a good way to be debt-crippled for the rest of your life.

Yeah. I couldn't believe my friend racked up as much debt as he did. Over 100K I know that for a fact. To me that's insane. Especially when after you're finished and you're still a manager at a fast food restaurant.

[Urselius]

You should consider Archaeology or a Classical History/Archaeology course. Archaeology has many cross-overs with things like Biology, Chemistry, and even Civil Engineering - students are taught surveying skills. In short, it teaches many skills that are useful outside academia. Classics is much more limiting, and only a tiny minority of Classics PhDs or Classical History PhDs ever enter an academic career. To be blunt you could very easily end up with a PhD in Classics and then have to re-train in order to make yourself employable.

[Ariovistus]

Being a life-long academic is something that I have considered but it is not the only reason why I wish to pursue classics, or history in general. Being a teacher is something that I genuinely wish to do; if I can contribute to the field as well, then it would be a dream come true. Going through high school I had a World History teacher who put no effort forth despite teaching for well over 30 years, yet it was still my favorite class. My AP English teacher on the other hand made such a profound impact on me that it gave me reason enough to pursue teaching and alter kids' lives as well. But that is just a little background on my reasoning.

So would all of you suggest pursuing a general history degree instead of classics? On top of pursuing classical studies I planned on attempting to take an Executive MBA program through the Ross School of Business at U of M (#4 ranked in the nation), which only requires courses to be taken on the weekend over a course of 5 years. Should I switch those around and focus full-time on business while taking an expedient route of the humanities? I do excel at math and science but I find those comparably boring unless I were to study Astrophysics or something haha.

I really do appreciate all of your feedback and keep it coming! This is a very important decision that I have to make in my life.

[Walhaz]

I'm going to agree with what everyone else has said so far: a career in the classics is not a good bet. It is actually unlikely that you will even get a job in academia, and if you do it will pay very poorly (or not at all) for quite a long while, which will hurt even more considering how much debt you will be in. You would be far better using your time and money pursuing an education that will get you a good career. After becoming established in your career you will have many more options for enjoying classics and military history, and even continuing your education if the letters are important to you.

That being said, if you are bound and determined to try the field of classics, it is very (very, very, very) important to study under the right professors. The simple fact is that a very few universities produce the vast majority of professors, and those who reach the professorial ranks from outside those few schools do so because they studied under the right professors. (As far as the military history discipline in the US, the University of Kansas is probably the leading institute.)

You indicated that you were thinking about a master's degree: don't bother with a master's degree if you aren't going to get your doctorate. Master's degrees in hard sciences usually count for something, but they are mostly useless in the humanities. (Even if you want to teach at the high school level. High schools don't want to hire people who have master's degrees because it's too expensive. You're better off getting hired at a school and then going back for your master's. Even then, you should pick a program like education or administration.) In fact, it's not necessary to get a master's to go on and get your doctorate. If my significant other had skipped the master's and gone straight to her PhD program she would have a looooot less school debt and she would have been done three years earlier. (BTW, she's got two M.A.s and a PhD, and I still make three times what she does.)

I have a M.A. in military history, and I can tell you that it has not helped me in the job market one bit. I greatly enjoyed getting it, and it helps me in many, many ways (including on my job), but it doesn't increase my salary, and it didn't get me a job.

I'm also available to PM if you have any further specific questions. My significant other and her cohorts (largely un- or under-employed) are a wealth of knowledge about the academic world. They'll tell you to get an education that will set you up for life, but if you're set on your idea they will also have some ideas about grants and fellowships and so on.

Below are a couple of articles on the academy. Do some quick Google searches about this stuff, it might change your mind.

Slate Article
Another article
And a third