Roman Dagger

[John Melfordicus]

Removed!!

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Roman? :oops:

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Could be a forgerie o an unknow kind of ancient weapon... Turkish, perhaps, i suppose by the half moon on the pommel.

[Vindex]

I'm almost sure this is not Roman and what do you mean by "my dagger"?

Was this found during an official excavation at Viminacium Roman Fortress Moesia? If so, what is the context and provenance of the find?

Is it is not from an official excavation I suggest you remove it from this web site immediately.

[Robert]

Well, we have seen plenty of examples of collectors displaying un-provenanced items on this forum before. It is safe to state that 98 % of the items in private collections were gathered through at best doubious channels and at worst by criminal means. Even those bought from European auction houses (God, I hate those!) often have very obscure pedigrees. A vast number of items in musea however do, too. Some American recently opened a Biblical museum, boasting he had collected 40.000 artifacts for his museum within a year. Good thing there was anarchy and war throughout most of the Middle East! That must have helped him along fabiously.

Archeology is a relatively young science, but looting is as old as the moment people started putting stuff worth stealing into a tomb ...... So there is plenty of stuff around predating any serious study. And more stuff being dug up as I type this to fuel the collections of the ignorant ...... Which in my book includes most private collectors! You have to be a proper "end of the digestive tract" to maintain (as some on this forum have done) that collecting even well known ancient coins does not potentialy damage the archeological science, when the practice is these are dug up by money motivated individuals ripping them out of a context where that very coin could have proven or disproven a definitive dating of the discarded shards and leather fragment found strewn around the pit. I speak from bitter experience.

(I edited out some more words not fit for this forum, but I do hope most can read between the lines).

[richsc]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/en...-Wall.html

[Robert]

My point, fences are as much to blame as those yielding the shovel and pick. They fuel this industry!

[brennivs - tony drake]

As a archeoligist myself as well as someone who makes items. The thought of items removed from there context makes me sick, I and anyone who recreats artifacts need contex. I have no problem with somone who does reasearch then goes out and finds a item on a unknowen site but to go and take items from a ancient documented site, does not need to advitise it on this forum. May the trowel lead the way.
Regards Brennivs

[66kbm]

I know this accumulatively sounds bad, but, I am a metal detetectorist, reenactor and amateur archaeologist.
As said many times before, don't tar the people with the same brush. Please don't do the same to us, the majority.
One bad headline does not show the good work done/items recovered through PAS.
Give us break, some/most of us are good..
Kevin.

[ANTONIVS MAGNVS]

I know this accumulatively sounds bad, but, I am a metal detetectorist, reenactor and amateur archaeologist.
As said many times before, don't tar the people with the same brush. Please don't do the same to us, the majority.
One bad headline does not show the good work done/items recovered through PAS.
Give us break, some/most of us are good..
Kevin.

Agreed! I know several amateur numismatists who have made great contributions to our knowledge of history and dating of events. Most of us go out of our way to buy from legal sources.

[PhilusEstilius]

I most certainly agree with both Kevin and Jay where there are those who would appear to have this blinkered view that what is in the ground should not be taken out, I also metal detect and also have put forward items to the PAS scheme that has in fact added to the tremendous amount of information that is now available where much of ths material is being damaged or destroyed by modern farming methods.

[Robert]

The article posted offers a moderated view on detectorists, so I do not feel it tars all with the same brush. There is a world of differnce between those walking plowed Agricultural land in order to find dislodged artifacts within the worked soil and those digging in grassland, woods and other undisturbed area's without a licence. In the Netherlands, a very good example from the recent past of the service detectorists can provide to archeologie is the book "Gered uit de Grond" (Salvaged from Soil). Here, detectorists have dug up a multitude of items from a large dump of ground uncerimoniously excavated when a Roman site was being developed. The area in question was not deemed worthy of excavating. Well photographed and documented, it is a monument of cooperation between the archeological field and detectorists with a concience.

But as long as private collectors (and some musea) will buy whatever comes onto the market, there will be a drive for illicitly obtained objects. Unless the detectorist community steps up and actively weeds out the undesirable elements from their midst, the hobby as such will remain under a dark cloud.
Mind you, I agree that most damage is done by actual looting and as you say the farming practices, both deep plowing and leveling. Detectorists walking plowed fields in my view are not a problem, far from it if they abide to simple rules of obtaining permission and reporting their finds.

[caiusbeerquitius]

If you nowadays buy from the antiquities market, it is very very likely that your money goes into the pockets of ISIS. The items travel mostly to switzerland and souther Germany, are declared as being from a "private collection from the 70ies" or the like, and sold off worldwide. Germany is about to change its laws for the art market now because of this.

Here´s where the art market gets its objects from: http://www.unitar.org/unosat/imagery

I agree pretty much with robert: It is OK to collect open ground, but as soon as a shovel or similar is included in the process, it is irresponsible. One similarly would not let a "hobby-surgeon" make a spine or brain surgery. There are reasons why it takes years to become a decent archaeologist, and why you need to go to university to become one.

[Robert]

The images from Dura are the most telling, as here an archeological site of great importance has been pitted with excavation holes. This has NOTHING to do with wantom destruction on grounds of religious beliefs, but just plain greed and a need for money in a country gone to the dogs

[Creon01]

What a terrible choice, destruction forever or looting? If we chose the looting option as the lesser of two evils we only encourage more looting and not just in conflict zones, but at least we save our patrimony from being lost forever.

I just hope the fighting ends and sanity returns.