DEVA 2012

[Marcus Caecilius Avitus]

Fair enough.

Which group were you with BTW?

[Materfamillias]

Piotr was with us on Saturday, although he hasn't been with us very long he came with lots of experience of reenacting in Poland.
He is very happy to share his views, -sometimes very contraversial views- but he is always amusing and direct with his speech.
The views he has expressed are most definately his views, and not the views held by our officership.

[Robert Vermaat]

And a few more.
Graham.

Who's that single Late Roman in this picture (DSC_0206.JPG) hiding inbetween the Principate O-group?

[Graham Sumner]

He is from Britannia.

I guess it was all the officers from each group.

Graham.

[Paul Elliott]

Oh, Robert! One Persian cavalrymen against the massed foulkons of Western Europe! Poor Nadeem wouldn't stand a chance (nice guy though he is!).

This was my first event as a re-enactor and you Romans made an Eastern enemy feel very welcome! :mrgreen:

Nadem, as I've already said on FB, you had a fabulous piece of kit. laudes! I DO hope you can pop over to the continent in future and give us Late Romans some opposition.

[Robert Vermaat]

Oh, Robert! One Persian cavalrymen against the massed foulkons of Western Europe! Poor Nadeem wouldn't stand a chance (nice guy though he is!).

He could ride rings around us! Until Jurjen has his cataphract ready, of course. :wink:

[Crispvs]

I'm sorry not to have been there! I was fully expecting to be but unfortunately my car went and failed its MOT on Friday afternoon (rather too late to arrange a lift from anyone) and the relevant work on it could not be carried out until the following weekend!

Not having been there I cannot really comment on much of Piotr's list. But some things are a constant headache in Roman re-enactment. Leather wristbands / bracers are one of those things every new group seems to think are necessary and have to be trained out of. Unfortunately most people will consciously or unconsciously ignore research in favour of either what they see others doing already or what films and illustrations in books have shown them.
A case in point of this which is a constant annoyance to me is the use of a pair of leather straps to attach pugios to belts. People only do this because they have seen other people doing it but most then seem to become deaf to any suggestion that the sculptural evidence is utterly devoid of these straps, even though many people complain of their pugios jumping out of their sheaths when they run (due to the sheaths swinging about on the erroneous straps). Another, related, thing which really gets my blood boiling is the use of the lower suspension rings on pugio sheaths. 100% of the available evidence says that the lower rings were consistently unused by the Romans, yet numerous people have made appeals to spurious ideas of practicality and convenience when I have mentioned this to them. Some have tried the legitimate argument that 100% of the army wouldn't have done everything the same 100% of the time, but until the evidence turns up for even a single Roman pugio sheath having lower suspension rings which did anything other than sit there and look pretty any such argument falls on its face. I have to say that I get sick and tired of hearing people with virtually no historical knowledge telling me airily that "soldiers in every age have done (insert modern practice here) so the Romans probably did too." I am almost on the point of taking persistent offenders aside and cutting the straps with a razor and throwing the remains in a river!
Trousers being worn by first century AD legionary re-enactors are another thing which annoys me. People start to feel cold so they say to themselves: 'the Romans must have got cold in cold weather just like me. They would have seen the trousers being worn by Germans and Gauls and thought: those seem like a good idea - I'll get myself a pair'. Yet I would like to see some evidence before people start using or recommending trousers or either type. We certainly know they were in use fifty to sixty years after the period most of us depict, but that does not necessary mean they were in use by legionaries as early as the mid first century AD, especially when they had so many other options for keeping themselves warm already which did not come from the 'barbarian' realms. People tend to forget that the Romans were not like us and did not think like us.

I feel I should address the matter of subarmali. It is true that many Roman re-enactors do not wear these, but then again, when I first came to Roman re-enactment fifteen years ago form a mediaeval re-enactment background, I noted at the time that virtually no Roman re-enactors wore padding under their armour, when at the time I put down to the fact that most Roman re-enactors are not combat re-enactors and have little idea of combat considerations. I would have to say now though that from what I have observed myself, half or more Roman re-enactors are now wearing some sort of padding under their armour and this appears to be improving all the time in terms of both numbers and commitment to accuracy. If anyone doubts that, hunt out the 'Padded Armour' thread from a few years back.

Anyway, that is probably enough of a rant from one who was not at the event being talked about. Sorry to have missed you all. I was very much looking forward to seeing quite a number of you again. Next year I must take the car in for its check a week or two before the car tax is due. :roll:

Thanks for the photos Graham!

Crispvs

[Chariovalda]

This was my first event as a re-enactor and you Romans made an Eastern enemy feel very welcome! :mrgreen:

Nadem, as I've already said on FB, you had a fabulous piece of kit. laudes! I DO hope you can pop over to the continent in future and give us Late Romans some opposition.

Thank you! I hope so too - that would be incredible! Let's keep in touch on FB and if I am free I would love to pop over sometime :-D

Well, we're hoping that the Museumpark Orientalis will be available in future years as well. Would be the perfect spot for a Persian Sasanid cataphract :wink:

[Nerva]

Paul stop being an arse. If you want to take up your arguments 1 by 1 with me I'll gladly do so.

[Nerva]

Hello Piotr,

You say...

"bracers, bracers everywhere! The leather Hollywood bracers on milites, on optiones, on officers. People who command and who should be setting the kit standards have those bloody Russel Crowe bracers."
A)Can you please be more specific?

- medieval chainmail hauberks worn as hamata. 8 or 10mm rings, clenched and not riveted, clearly in shape of medieval chain shirts. And this (again) even on the officers! Something between 50 and 75% of chain mails looked like this.
A) 8 to 10mm butted mail is not uncommon for 1st century. I recently visited Saalbureg fort and held an 8mm butted 1st century mail shirt in my hand. Again if you go to the Trier museum you will find 3 1st century shirts, all 6 to 8mm butted.

- chainmail (even the accurate one) worn as decoration, as a prop and not an armour. Worn directly on tunics so that it simply stops making any sense whatsoever. Maybe there were some people who actually wore chain on proper padding (and I don't mean paper-thin cow hide), but I haven't seen any.
A) What is your evidence for mail being worn over subarmails? Please expand and discuss.

- subarmalis out of wild dreams of a Hollywood set artist. Some absolutely Xena-fantasy pteruges (including officers with thin pitiful half-circles cut out of cowhide) on them. Cowhide everywhere, patterned after American movies. Decorations without any source or reference, just made up after a consultation with a goat and a camel. After the march and around the camp those would be worn without armour to strut out the fantasy stuff.
A) I wasn't aware that there was somebody going around making a study of peoples undergarments, if you had made yourself known to me I would have given you a most intimate tour of my subarmails.

- a guy with modern running white socks in his caligae!
A) Only 1!

- Brits with medieval bags, XVIIc dirks, XXc faux wineskins. A Brit in a tank-top!
A) In what context were these worn? Did the brit ware anything else but a tanktop while you were eyeing him up?

- Medieval and larp bags dangling of the balteus militaris, they were everywhere you looked. Those and female purse-sized bags.
A) Are you refering to Len Morgan?

- scale armours made with scales the size of surfing boards. Where is this coming from? Some of them looked like dragon slayers.
A) Do you have a picture of these? I'd certainly like to discuss them with you.

In short Piotr you are just shit stirring. If you really have the hobby's best interest at heart then be constructive. Please make yourself known to me at our next event and we can have a constructive conversation.

As we would say over here in the bog you would call Hibernia, your a Gobshite!

Have a nice day...

Nerva.

[Marcus Caecilius Avitus]

Don't Beat about the bush Martin! Say what you really mean! :lol:

For all those who insist that 1st century Romans didn't wear any arm or leg coverings. At the event, we had confrimed cases of clinical hypothermia on Sunday. There is no significant physiological differnce between a modern man and a 1st century man they would have had the same issues as we had. In fact as most of Chester's legionaries harkened from Spain, they'd probably be less well adjusted to our lovely weather. Last of all, lets not forget we do this as a hobby. It may be very noble to stick in what you believe was the correct dress (not that anyone will ever be 100% sure), but if it lands you in hospital, I think your priorities may be a littlew skewed!

[Mergus]

Piotr
Shame you have to hit out at what you see as gross inaccuracies on this forum, rather than take it up at the event. A few things:
Having just finished 30 years in the military I can tell you that the equipment and uniform worn and adapted by soldiers in the field is very different from that used in publicity shots. It would be interesting to compare what people thought about modern equipment and the real thing if all they had was the "come and join the army" poster. Take for example the new Multi terrain Pattern "Hat, combat, tropical" - the British hat is terrible, the crown is too big and it settles over your ears. Most people get them cut down at a tailors or swap for an American Multicam one, I sewed the neck sun protector onto one. However, history will say we wore the hat as issued. Who knows what the Romans actually did and wore, but I bet they would have had many variations on a theme.
However, what is missing here is something that it took me a while to learn. THE PUBLIC DONT CARE! They are after the spectacle, not the total authenticity. Sure it will be great to have everyone as accurate as possible, and one day who knows, but in the meantime we need to do the best we can to attract new recruits and keep the public informed.
When I first started working for Roman Tours I went to do a talk as a stooge at an old people's home. After a while I realised that one lady was blind, so went across and as Paul talked I let her feel the item he was talking about. Afterwards she said that she had been blind from birth, but finally knew what a Roman soldier looked, smelt and felt like....the smell of the wool, leather and armour, the shape of the helmet. That is what it is about, not wether the bloody mail is riveted or not!
And talking of undergarments, what were you wearing, "authentic" Roman style or Armani's?

Cheers Nerva, your straight to the point attitude always gives me a laugh, even when it is at my expense!

[Nerva]

That is me being diplomatic, honestly. Look I could go on a rant here but it's best not too. Suffice to say I hold Piotr's comments in the same esteem as Fr. Jack does Fr. Ted...Arse, Feck, Gobshite…

[Graham Sumner]

...............and after all that excitement back to some photos!

I do not know the correct terminology, perhaps someone can invent one, so for the time being here is a clutch of Centurions!

[Graham Sumner]

and here is an optical of Optio's! and some legionaries.