Did the Germans \"flip off\" the Romans?

[Epictetus]

The Roman historian Tacitus wrote that German tribesmen gave the middle finger to advancing Roman soldiers, says Thomas Conley, a professor emeritus of communication and classics at the University of Illinois, who has written about the rhetoric of insults.

BBC - When did the middle finger become offensive?

Does anyone know the reference to this? I did a word search through Tacitus and couldn't find anything.

[D B Campbell]

Does anyone know the reference to this?

This one is new to me. Unfortunately, I see that Professor Conley doesn't supply a reference (although he cites the Shakespeare quote):
[attachment=2886]ThomasConley_Rhetoric-of-Insult.jpg[/attachment]

[Nathan Ross]

I read this article this morning and thought the Tacitus remark sounded like hokum!

The only references to rude finger or hand gestures I can find are in Suetonius, who has Caligula 'forming and moving [his hand] in an obscene fashion' when Cassius Chaerea goes to kiss it (Cal.56.2), and writes in Augustus of the actor Pylades, expelled for 'pointing with his finger' at a heckler in the audience (Suet, Aug.45.4)

There are others, I think, in Juvenal et al, although it's often a bit unclear quite what the gesture might be. The finger salute is often referred to as a good luck gesture or ward against the evil eye - the last in Persius, I believe.

Nothing about Germans though! Could Professor Conley have... made it up?? hock:

[mcbishop]

Nothing about Germans though! Could Professor Conley have... made it up?? hock:

Heaven forfend! Likewise, the 'obscene' gesture most familiar from military equipment is the manu fica, with the thumb poking through the index and middle finger in an apotropaic gesture (frequently found as an 'extra boost' on phallic pendants).

Mike Bishop

[Epictetus]

There are others, I think, in Juvenal et al, although it's often a bit unclear quite what the gesture might be.

Yes, I found this in Junvenal:

He laughed at the troubles, ay and at the pleasures, of the crowd, sometimes too at their tears, while for himself he would bid frowning fortune go hang, and point at her the finger of derision.

Satire 10

Regarding Tacitus, I checked Annals, Histories and Germania, using every word search I could think of. I also have Agricola and the Dialogue in Loeb, but I haven't checked those yet.

I think it would be interesting if the Germans used a gesture that was the same that the Romans used, or was at least understandable by them.

[Nathan Ross]

I think it would be interesting if the Germans used a gesture that was the same that the Romans used, or was at least understandable by them.

But maybe unlikely - although 'rude gestures' of any sort are usually understandable as rude and probably sexual, whatever their exact connotation!

Interesting that so many of these hand-signals are Latin/Mediterranean in origin. The manu fica Mike mentioned is still in use today (in Sicily anyway), but hasn't really achieved the global appeal of the one finger. The BBC article mentions that the latter was brought to the USA by Italian immigrants in the 19th century, and went global from there - so rather than being a universal sign of contempt, it was a specifically Italian and then American one...

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I've only read the one translation of Tacitus Gewrmania, but I don' trecall this either.
Not saying it isn't but being a frequent user of th egesture, I think it would have stuck in my mind! :wink:

[D B Campbell]

... but being a frequent user of the gesture, I think it would have stuck in my mind! :wink:

At least you're not a frequent recipient of the gesture! (Or are you?!) hock:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

... but being a frequent user of the gesture, I think it would have stuck in my mind! :wink:

At least you're not a frequent recipient of the gesture! (Or are you?!) hock:

Not as often as I used to be....

[Eleatic Guest]

Does anyone know the reference to this? I did a word search through Tacitus and couldn't find anything.

I wrote Mr. Conley and he was gracious enough to concede that he actually holds no proof for this, but assumed this from hearsay at his alma mater where this notion seems to have been popular then.

[D B Campbell]

... he actually holds no proof for this, but assumed this from hearsay ...

:roll:

[Epictetus]

Thanks, Stefan!

Now I wonder if this will go down in folklore like Scipio sowing Carthage with salt?