10-07-2010, 09:17 AM
Yes, it is not at odds with any theory. You guys are more concerned about the stance and I about the order of things. But as a parameter, rank cohesion should be a factor in any experiments about the most effective othismos stance. You could propose, I guess, that your "crowd theory" could also be applied as a stance to only be implemented to gain one or two steps and then stop the pressure, why not? In my opinion, this is what and how it should be researched. It is always tempting to try out an all-out pushing match when you are clad with all this armor and hold your brightly colored aspis but I really doubt that this is what othismos is about. Any model of prolonged pressure exertion suffers under this prism.
You know Paul that I do support the "my left over your right" overlap. Actually this is the overlap I had used in the said experiment. But in a line a thousand man wide, a failure of 1% alone to keep the overlap for various reasons would be 10 men. Also, the fact that his epistates might not follow only makes things worse for him. Othismos did not only happen when both phalanxes agreed to it. I believe that hoplites would have some kind of countermeasures which might have included a counterothismos of sorts but in many cases this would have happened if the protostates were not constantly concerned with his place among the ranks and at the same time able to keep it. Actually those overlaps cannot really stop you from exiting the line if too much force is exerted upon you or if you exert too much force, they mostly remind you when you do. I had no problem exiting the line, but one could argue that we were not tight enough in the formation. I don't think we were and this is also an aspect worth researching, how much force is necessary to break the lines in close order (60 cm per man) with the use of an average (D 80+ cm) aspis and an overlap of something like 20 cm. My guess is (from my experience), not really much. With the overlap you are hindered just enough to open yourself to the enemy, but if pushing forward, it can't really stop you if for any reason the force you exert forward is greater than the force exerted by the man on your right (maybe because he meets with a greater resistance than you). Also the fabled step backwards could also be used to help such instances happen. You mentioned a "Thessalian backstep" or something? Where did you find it in the sources? We have talked about it in the past but I am not aware of any mentioning of something like that being described as at tactic in primary sources.
Other useful and interesting experiments would include countermeasures and casulaties as factors:
1. casualty during othismos
The protostates only of one of the two teams secretly agree that one of them will be the casualty. Sometime during othismos, this man just stops moving. He might remain standing being "crushed" between the lines or fall if pressure is not too great or if his opponent chooses to back up a bit (if the pressuring model you are using allows it). See what happens.
2. Backstep
The protostates only of one of the two teams secretly agree that one of them will backstep. Just before he does he somehow signals the men beside to be ready to stab in case the enemy follows. Once the kill is made, he again tries to push forward.
3. Group backstep
One team pushes, the other backsteps. See how far this could go without breaking ranks.
4. Unbalanced placing
Make one file of your biggest men and one next to it of your smallest women. See what happens during any model of othismos. Experiment with such imbalances in the other line too. (Your strongest against my weakest)
5. Ability to fend off missile attacks during othismos.
Make up many missiles of soft materials and start throwing them at one of your lines while they are pushing. See what stance would provide better protection, count hits in unprotected places if any (could be none or minimal), see how the hoplites would react, will they keep looking at the enemy? Will they look down to protect themselves? Do these missiles add to the stress of combat even if no real damage is sustained? Could a psilos aim behind his line at a single opponent? How about inflicted hits on your own team by mistake?
6. Ability to fight during othismos
Again with shortswords made of soft materials see how it can be possible if it is possible. Noone says they surely did deliver blows when pushing but maybe they could.
7. The ability to defend against stabs during othismos.
One line pushes the other one tries to stab at the men. Try stabbing over the shields. What happens if the hoplites are looking down with raised shields? What happens if hoplites are trapped between shields with their head over the shield?
I am sure that you could research even more parameters of combat during othismos, imagination only is necessary (and a good number of reenactors unfortunately...).
Quote:PMBardunias wrote : The type of overpenetration you describe would be very difficult for a crowd due to the discrete stepwise advance, particularly if shields overlap in the way I describe it. For a single file to end up penetrating the enemy phalanx it would require the promachos to break out from under the aspis to his right, but also each successive man in the file to do so as well.
You know Paul that I do support the "my left over your right" overlap. Actually this is the overlap I had used in the said experiment. But in a line a thousand man wide, a failure of 1% alone to keep the overlap for various reasons would be 10 men. Also, the fact that his epistates might not follow only makes things worse for him. Othismos did not only happen when both phalanxes agreed to it. I believe that hoplites would have some kind of countermeasures which might have included a counterothismos of sorts but in many cases this would have happened if the protostates were not constantly concerned with his place among the ranks and at the same time able to keep it. Actually those overlaps cannot really stop you from exiting the line if too much force is exerted upon you or if you exert too much force, they mostly remind you when you do. I had no problem exiting the line, but one could argue that we were not tight enough in the formation. I don't think we were and this is also an aspect worth researching, how much force is necessary to break the lines in close order (60 cm per man) with the use of an average (D 80+ cm) aspis and an overlap of something like 20 cm. My guess is (from my experience), not really much. With the overlap you are hindered just enough to open yourself to the enemy, but if pushing forward, it can't really stop you if for any reason the force you exert forward is greater than the force exerted by the man on your right (maybe because he meets with a greater resistance than you). Also the fabled step backwards could also be used to help such instances happen. You mentioned a "Thessalian backstep" or something? Where did you find it in the sources? We have talked about it in the past but I am not aware of any mentioning of something like that being described as at tactic in primary sources.
Other useful and interesting experiments would include countermeasures and casulaties as factors:
1. casualty during othismos
The protostates only of one of the two teams secretly agree that one of them will be the casualty. Sometime during othismos, this man just stops moving. He might remain standing being "crushed" between the lines or fall if pressure is not too great or if his opponent chooses to back up a bit (if the pressuring model you are using allows it). See what happens.
2. Backstep
The protostates only of one of the two teams secretly agree that one of them will backstep. Just before he does he somehow signals the men beside to be ready to stab in case the enemy follows. Once the kill is made, he again tries to push forward.
3. Group backstep
One team pushes, the other backsteps. See how far this could go without breaking ranks.
4. Unbalanced placing
Make one file of your biggest men and one next to it of your smallest women. See what happens during any model of othismos. Experiment with such imbalances in the other line too. (Your strongest against my weakest)
5. Ability to fend off missile attacks during othismos.
Make up many missiles of soft materials and start throwing them at one of your lines while they are pushing. See what stance would provide better protection, count hits in unprotected places if any (could be none or minimal), see how the hoplites would react, will they keep looking at the enemy? Will they look down to protect themselves? Do these missiles add to the stress of combat even if no real damage is sustained? Could a psilos aim behind his line at a single opponent? How about inflicted hits on your own team by mistake?
6. Ability to fight during othismos
Again with shortswords made of soft materials see how it can be possible if it is possible. Noone says they surely did deliver blows when pushing but maybe they could.
7. The ability to defend against stabs during othismos.
One line pushes the other one tries to stab at the men. Try stabbing over the shields. What happens if the hoplites are looking down with raised shields? What happens if hoplites are trapped between shields with their head over the shield?
I am sure that you could research even more parameters of combat during othismos, imagination only is necessary (and a good number of reenactors unfortunately...).
