Othismos: Classical vs Crowd Theory Othismos

[PMBardunias]

It's my turn to apologize for coming on a bit strong, your comment following the accident did not incline me to a kindly attitiude.

Let us start this again, but I think we need to make one large concession to each other. We are not in fact doing exactly the same thing. Thus I can tell, and you have verified, that many of the elements of your posture and kit are not the same as my own when I have tested this. Because your expressed purpose was to replicate my technique and compare it, I have told you many times that you are doing something "wrong" and you seem to take exception. But this is only "wrong" in its equivalency to my technique, it is not wrong in any other sense, it is simply not what I put forth.

I'll give you an example, though I don't like to bring this up for fear of someone attempting to replicate it. The reason that I am pretty sure that you will collapse into your aspis under pressure is because I have tried it and this has happened to me. Now I did so years back with my pseudo-aspis, if you imagine a blocky 3' top-hat, squashed down to 6" in height, you're close because I could not easily do the outer curve. I did not have a line of willing hoplites, but I did have a car- we'll leave it right there, and I won't ever attempt this again. I collapsed. Why? Because chest to shield is the minimal packing size position for a man with an aspis. This means that you can be forced into this pose and with enough pressure and time you probably will be. Once you are though, there is no going back unless the pushing stops.

Now this was not your experience. I could say from my point of view that you did not have enough force, force of a long enough duration to cause exhaustion, grinding force from varying angles that would make holding a side-on position difficult, etc. You on the otherhand could could point out that my aspis was not bowled properly and I took the weight on my shoulder and this could make all the difference. And you may be right.

This is why when you tell me that you can in a side-on stance defeat a man pushing face on like a sumo wrestler or a football lineman I must first figure out if and what you have done differently, because I can tell you from doing this many times this is not my experience. If I tell you are not doing something "right" it is only because you are claiming to replicate what I did. It is prettly clear from your description that you guys don't know how to push this way. Big deal, I can't do a spinning back kick worth a damn. But again it means we are not doing the same thing. For example, if you kick with the ball of your foot and I replicate your kick, but with the tip of my toe, then I am not correct in telling you that you can't kick or you'll break your toes. I in fact have no evidence that Greeks knew how to push this way, so even if my way was better, it does not mean it was used.

This is why I say that much of this cannot be answered until all of us get together, it is too difficult to explain many elements in text. Moreso because I cannot always tell what you are doing different unless something does not match my experience.

As to rib fracture. Ribs break in the front in crowds because of the lack of protection for the lower chest. The area below your sternum is very vulnerable to compression. Because your sternum is not supported by any attachment on the bottom your whole ribcage acts like a lever against your upper sternum. So a fracture in the upper sternum is actually due to pressure on the lower sternum. It is of course this region covering the diaphragm that is responsible for asphyxia when pressed upon. I could do a shopping list of problems with the side-on stance that have nothing to do with pushing strength, but to me the foremost problem is that if, and I agree this is an if, files start to close laterally, pressure from the sides is a big problem because your posture is so opened and your chest unprotected.

In my position there is really no risk of rib fracture. I can tell you, again don't ask, that you could drive a car over a man with an aspis in my position and he will not only suffer no (lasting) harm, but retain the ability to breathe. The reason for this is that most of the weight is centered on two very strong sections of the body: the left clavicle/shoulder region and the left thigh. This is achieved because of the genius of the aspis's design, creating in essence an arch between the two points to bear the weight.

particularly as those injuries were endured attempting to follow your advice and diagrams of the fourteenth

It is instances like this that have made me warn again and again about how dangerous such things can be. I think you missed it in your first reading of what I wrote, but I warned specifically against what happened to you. It should not have occurred in your instance though, because your initial charge should have popped him up and you should have been driving into him so hard with your legs that he could not step back away if he wanted to. If he tried to get lower than you, then you should have taken a step towards his back side and changed the angle, this will drive him face first into the ground because he is vulnerable to any lateral moves in a way you are not. If he still doesn't go down, pop him again, and brace your hand against your shield rim on the right if it helps- you can use two hands even around the hilt of your sword, he has to reach across his own chest do do so. Also, his shield his on the vertical brace of his shoulder and thigh, with the very weak leverage of the forearm to cotrol side to side pivoting. Yours is braced in a triangle with the left shoulder at its peak and the forearm its base. You simply need to "swim' him a bit- make him take your weight on either lateral face of his shield where it is weak and you will collapse him. But you need to drive hard. One of your main advantages is that you have far greater mobility and driving force, while he has an advantage in static resistance. Don't play his game. I did not go into too much detail previously for this one on one match up because I don't know how important it really is in massed hoplite combat. It is something of a side-note. But now I wish I were there, because if I could show you how this works, maybe some of the rest would be clearer as well.

In real life what would occur is that you would be shield to shield with him, but your right arm would be over the right rim of your own shield and the back side of his. He would be attempting to slash your left side, protected by the maximum rise of your aspis, by reaching all the way across his body in the most awkward fashion. Meanwhile, you have full arm extension and would either be tickling his neck or reaching down for the steel enema.

I'm going to be making another batch of rough cut aspides- I make mine from a series of arches cut with a band saw and they are not pretty because I don't bother to finish them like I should since I am destroying them. Maybe I'll round up my brother and see if I can get Craig to meet me halfway, in the middle of the Everglades, and film some stuff this winter. :wink: