Othismos: Classical vs Crowd Theory Othismos

[Paullus Scipio]

Paul B. wrote:

If you have a pelta and spear and I have an aspis and sword, then yes the penalty for fighting shield to shield is death for you- victory for me! 8)

...whilst that might be something of a mismatch, and the reason peltasts fought generally at a distance, so no self-respecting peltast would get into such a position, I'd venture to suggest to suggest that the skills of the individuals might play a part too.... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Paul, this arguement is not even internally consistant. You cannot close with spearmen, but if you do you can only do so sporatically???

Don't take things out of context, please ! I am sure most readers would understand I mean 'close' to combat distance i.e. spear thrusting range...

Who ever said that this has to occur on a 1,000 yard front in perfect coordination! I have told you so many times my fingers are numb that this need not be the case and more specifically that this level of coordination along the front of a parataxeis is not needed. I just showed the undulating front of the police line in that video.

My apologies.....you did indeed concede that a co-ordinated push by a whole phalanx was impossible long ago in our debates - though you began by advocating a 'mass-shove' by a phalanx......when I look back, I note that your hypothesis has evolved considerably, from a 'mass-shove' by a whole 'crowd/phalanx' packed belly-to-back unable to do anything but shuffle forward, to a much more dynamic 'leaning in/domino' model, and now, apparently...

Where in the crowd video did you see a front rank policeman being propelled into the crowd out of control? It is the file that follows its leader in this example.

....with no pressure at all on the leading rank ??? Subsequent ranks don't 'push' into the leader's back ?? Where is the irresistible co-ordinated 'crowd push' generating "thousands of pounds of pressure" like a crowd disaster in a football ground or pop concert causing asphyxiation, but for their aspides ( incidently only occurring in confined spaces) that your hypothesis began with? Now we are down to small groups or individual files 'shoving' by 'leaning in' - but not exerting pressure on the leading ranks?

It seems to me that you have all but come round to my way of thinking!! D lol:

Except we just saw them doing just that in the riot video, so evidently it does not take a Kamikazi to push shield to shield.

...sure against passive unarmed people - no 'kamikaze' involved! And to save you the trouble I'll concede that in massed fighting, there will indeed be times in the 'seething and writhing' when charging or pushing brings men shield to shield despite the lethal weapons ( it can be sen in more violent rioting for example) and that is how men are killed in hand-to-hand combat - unable to maintain 'distance'.

Since I have no problem with doratismos, we would agree up to that point, and it is from there that this thread starts.

...since 'othismos' was a rarity in Hoplite battle, ( see e.g. "Land battles in 5 C BC Greece" by Fred Ray) presumably you mean on those rare occasions when 'shield-to-shield' combat came about ?? :wink:

Anyway, since you want to start with that as a given, I'll drop out and wait for reports Cole and co.'s next experiments ( or anyone else's, for that matter D )