Othismos: Classical vs Crowd Theory Othismos

[PMBardunias]

there was nothing particularly unique about 'phalanx' combat and certainly not supposed 'othismos'.

Some of us obviously believe there was, and as I asked above I'd like to limit the thread to discussions of literal othismos, not sniping for a figurative interpretation of pushing, so lets just end that discussion here.

Precisely the point! Any boxer or martial artist will tell you about 'distance' ( or re-enactor who actually fights, for that matter! ) and in combat it is even more acute - the penalty for getting 'distance' wrong is death!!

If you have a pelta and spear and I have an aspis and sword, then yes the penalty for fighting shield to shield is death for you- victory for me! 8)

'Herding' through the threat and reach of lethal weapons and resultant fear is far more of a motivator for forcing opponents back on each other, with resulting confusion, than a supposed 'body-to-body' suicidal shoving. Psychologically, you can't get humans to do the latter intentionally ( exceptions e.g. kamikazes,duly noted! ) - the will to live is usually too strong.......

Except we just saw them doing just that in the riot video, so evidently it does not take a Kamikazi to push shield to shield. And we know that Greeks did so as well. The question is not did they ever knock shields, but what happened after they closed that distance. Since I have no problem with doratismos, we would agree up to that point, and it is from there that this thread starts.

Let us leave it, and just see what insights Cole and co can provide

Why on earth do you think I am writing all of this for him???