09-16-2010, 02:47 PM
I found this clip of a riot yesterday that shows many of the issues I have discussed above. [url:1ch8meiu]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQkjrO1UJvk[/url]
The clip is interesting because it shows a very good point of view for discerning the movement and poses of the policemen who at times push into a crowd in more than 3 ranks. Also, the crowd itself is not very deep, not much more than 12 ranks, though not in neat files. The clip benefits from the fact that the "rioters" are largely attempting to be peaceful, they hold their hands over their heads and actually chant "this is not a riot". Most of what you will see is the police attempting to move the crowd through "herding", that is beating the people at the perifery who then press back into their own crowd-mates, and not actually pushing against the crowd. Beginning at about two minutes into the clip we see a closeup of a section of crowd that is putting some pressure on the police line of initially a single rank. The initial reaction is to bash the crowd members with their riot shields, showing how much freedom of movement can be had even at pretty close quarters.
What occurs next is more interesting from our point of view. At 2:24 there is a whistle and police move up in support to form 3, sometimes 4 ranks. Initially the pushing is easy and at 2:27 you can see that the police are pushing each other without being packed belly to back and advancing. There follows a little interlude where the camera focuses on a salient formed as the police move to join with a column of police at the top of the screen in yellow. At 2:38 you can see a flow of people that looks like an eddy in a stream as the police move into the crowd.
Just after that we see the main line of police still pushing the crowd, but now they are not making headway and their own ranks collapse belly to back. This is something I described back in my original article on crowds and othismos. The police initially push the crowd easily because it is not near maximum density, there is room for the individuals at the edge to simple shuffle back to the core. But the very act of pushing the crowd has increased its density, so now the police must push the whole as one. More importantly, early on, much of the crowd is simply "milling" not pushing towards the police line in unison. Once they are pushed against though, the natural reaction is to resist the direction of pressure. Thus the crowd spontaneously achieves and order that it lacked on its own. The police have focused the crowd against them. The result is a stalemate and the police quickly give up on pushing the crowd and simply hold the line. At about 2:53 you can see the type of tidal back and forth, almost "bouncing" that occurs in such collisions.
Notice that there is no unity of action along the front, in some places the crowd is resisting more than others and all order is spontaneously generated or as we say "emergent". For this discussin an important point is that many of the single rank of men are standing at 3/4 if not side-on when simply resisting the crowd. When the whistle blows and the pushing starts they are all facing the crowd and pushing forward (see below, the man in the red circle just before and after the whistle blows). Its important to note that in this clip the crowd is not really pushing all that much and still they resist the police. The pressures seen in this clip on both sides are very low. I'm pretty confident that if they were organized and pushing they could blow the police line out. (So if you are planning a riot, read your ancient Greek!) I would like to see how much force a file of 12 of those police could generate.
The "fighting" being done by the police in yellow is interesting as well, for it shows the sort of dead space that can form between two colliding crowds, even if each is pretty densely packed. It also shows how easily weapons can be used in these situations. I think such a salient would be very dangerous for hoplites. The enemy line could easily fold in on you and severely limit your movement, then slaughter you. I don't hold much faith in hoplites forming wedges.
Here's a second clip. [url:1ch8meiu]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgcwkNLY814&feature=related[/url] Not so useful, but it does show some nice footage of a coordinated and very close ordered advance...and retreat. Perhaps more like Dacian falxmen vs Romans. It does beg the question of where the South Korean's rubber bullets are- these guys with the staves are begging for sting-balls. Note how the police are reluctant to break from the line to engage. This is a great weakness of such linear formations in that they are easy to harrass. There is an almost Homeric stuggle over a fallen man at 2:04
The clip is interesting because it shows a very good point of view for discerning the movement and poses of the policemen who at times push into a crowd in more than 3 ranks. Also, the crowd itself is not very deep, not much more than 12 ranks, though not in neat files. The clip benefits from the fact that the "rioters" are largely attempting to be peaceful, they hold their hands over their heads and actually chant "this is not a riot". Most of what you will see is the police attempting to move the crowd through "herding", that is beating the people at the perifery who then press back into their own crowd-mates, and not actually pushing against the crowd. Beginning at about two minutes into the clip we see a closeup of a section of crowd that is putting some pressure on the police line of initially a single rank. The initial reaction is to bash the crowd members with their riot shields, showing how much freedom of movement can be had even at pretty close quarters.
What occurs next is more interesting from our point of view. At 2:24 there is a whistle and police move up in support to form 3, sometimes 4 ranks. Initially the pushing is easy and at 2:27 you can see that the police are pushing each other without being packed belly to back and advancing. There follows a little interlude where the camera focuses on a salient formed as the police move to join with a column of police at the top of the screen in yellow. At 2:38 you can see a flow of people that looks like an eddy in a stream as the police move into the crowd.
Just after that we see the main line of police still pushing the crowd, but now they are not making headway and their own ranks collapse belly to back. This is something I described back in my original article on crowds and othismos. The police initially push the crowd easily because it is not near maximum density, there is room for the individuals at the edge to simple shuffle back to the core. But the very act of pushing the crowd has increased its density, so now the police must push the whole as one. More importantly, early on, much of the crowd is simply "milling" not pushing towards the police line in unison. Once they are pushed against though, the natural reaction is to resist the direction of pressure. Thus the crowd spontaneously achieves and order that it lacked on its own. The police have focused the crowd against them. The result is a stalemate and the police quickly give up on pushing the crowd and simply hold the line. At about 2:53 you can see the type of tidal back and forth, almost "bouncing" that occurs in such collisions.
Notice that there is no unity of action along the front, in some places the crowd is resisting more than others and all order is spontaneously generated or as we say "emergent". For this discussin an important point is that many of the single rank of men are standing at 3/4 if not side-on when simply resisting the crowd. When the whistle blows and the pushing starts they are all facing the crowd and pushing forward (see below, the man in the red circle just before and after the whistle blows). Its important to note that in this clip the crowd is not really pushing all that much and still they resist the police. The pressures seen in this clip on both sides are very low. I'm pretty confident that if they were organized and pushing they could blow the police line out. (So if you are planning a riot, read your ancient Greek!) I would like to see how much force a file of 12 of those police could generate.
The "fighting" being done by the police in yellow is interesting as well, for it shows the sort of dead space that can form between two colliding crowds, even if each is pretty densely packed. It also shows how easily weapons can be used in these situations. I think such a salient would be very dangerous for hoplites. The enemy line could easily fold in on you and severely limit your movement, then slaughter you. I don't hold much faith in hoplites forming wedges.
Here's a second clip. [url:1ch8meiu]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgcwkNLY814&feature=related[/url] Not so useful, but it does show some nice footage of a coordinated and very close ordered advance...and retreat. Perhaps more like Dacian falxmen vs Romans. It does beg the question of where the South Korean's rubber bullets are- these guys with the staves are begging for sting-balls. Note how the police are reluctant to break from the line to engage. This is a great weakness of such linear formations in that they are easy to harrass. There is an almost Homeric stuggle over a fallen man at 2:04
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
