Greek hoplites in Persian art

[immortal]

Following on from the Persian thread and the accuracy of Persians in Greek art. I thought it would be interesting to discuss Greeks in Persian art.

Ive always put the depictions of Hoplites fighting naked in Greek art down to artistic licence and portraying a heroic image. Ive been looking at Hoplites in Persian art recently and noticed that they are also sometimes shown naked.
Now, it wouldn't make sense for a Persian to portray an enemy as heroically nude, so could this be taken as evidence that it did happen and was not just a artistic Greek tradition?

[Theodosius the Great]

Interesting. I've not seen Greek hoplites in Persian art.

The appearance of 'heroic' Greek figures would suggest to me that the sculptor was a Greek in Persian service.

In the 3rd century AD after the Persians captured and killed the Roman emperor Valerian, several prisoners were
taken back to Persia and some were forced to carve the famous freize showing the emperor prostrate before
Shah Shapur I. (clickable image)



Maybe the artist who created the Greek images was a free man or a captured prisoner or war.
Just a pure guess, of course.

~Theo

[MeinPanzer]

John Ma's article "Mysians on the Can Sarcophagus? Ethnicity and Domination in Achaemenid Military Art" (Historia, 57/3, 2008) discusses exactly this topic, among others. Ma demonstrates that a crucial element of Achaemenid art was the accurate depiction of subject peoples through distinct visual markers of ethnicity - hence the tribute bearers and the attention to detail in their costume, etc. The arms and costume of hoplites which do appear in Persian art are in perfect agreement with those of contemporary hoplites in western Anatolia and mainland Greece, so there should be little doubt about the accuracy of these depictions for the rest. I will quote directly from Ma rather than paraphrase further:

In some cases, the hoplite is represented naked - not a realistic portrayal, but an ethnically significant one, picking out the Greek predilection for images of male nakedness and re-using it as an ethnic marker: nakedness, aggressively muscular and youthful, is the Greek "national costume," borrowed from Greek aesthetics and visual arts, and appripriated within imperial discourse in a complex act of distancing, ironical comment and power.

This makes perfect sense given that the Persians would have been familiar both with Greek art and with the peculiar Greek habit of going nude to the gymnasium, or even of engaging in competitions in the nude in camp when armies were in the field.

[Sean Manning]

Interesting. I've not seen Greek hoplites in Persian art.

The appearance of 'heroic' Greek figures would suggest to me that the sculptor was a Greek in Persian service.

In the 3rd century AD after the Persians captured and killed the Roman emperor Valerian, several prisoners were
taken back to Persia and some were forced to carve the famous freize showing the emperor prostrate before
Shah Shapur I. (clickable image)



Maybe the artist who created the Greek images was a free man or a captured prisoner or war.
Just a pure guess, of course.

~Theo

Yauna, or Greek, hoplites are reasonably common on cylinder seals and in Anatolian art. Jona put up a photo of one here. I'll track down that article Ruben recommends.

There were some Greeks working at Persepolis and in western Anatolia, but like Ruben says Achaemenid artists made a point of identifying figures by their national dress.

[Theodosius the Great]

Thank you, Sean.
Very informative.

~Theo

[PMBardunias]

Sadly I only have access to Historia until 2005, but I tend to agree that nudity is just the sort of scandalous feature that becomes part of a steriotype. What percentage of "Persian" artworks were done by Greek crafstmen?

[Jona Lendering]

The only Persian representation of a Greek hoplite I know of, is this seal.

[MeinPanzer]

The only Persian representation of a Greek hoplite I know of, is this seal.

There are quite a few (dozens I think, but I haven't taken the time to tally them), both showing nude and fully-equipped hoplites: See Ma's article, p. 245, n. 7-8 for a full list. One particularly remarkable example would have to be a pyramidal stamp which shows a Persian killing a nude Greek attacking a woman - now that's propaganda! Ma even lists a few 4th c. BC stelae from Lycia showing Persian cavalrymen riding down nude hoplites.

[PMBardunias]

There are quite a few

If Ma includes any, please cut and paste. Here are a couple from: The Late "Achaemenian" or "Graecopersian" Gems
Gisela M. A. Richter Hesperia Supplements, Vol. 8, Commemorative Studies in Honor of Theodore Leslie Shear (1949)

[immortal]

Ive always found this one to be particularly interesting.
Note the Pilos helmet on the Greek and the cuirass worn by the Persian with pteryges and a very high neck protector, it seems to have sleeves, but this is debatable. He also has a knee length tunic with what appears to be a 'sawtooth' edging.

[PMBardunias]

I assume you've seen the Sarcophagus from Cannakale, if not, it shows the same panoply in greater detail. Also, I think the hoplite in the second image I posted above is wearing a crested pilos as well.

I wonder if there is a metal 'secret' under that hood of his.

[immortal]

Yes, that is one of my favourites!
The sleeves are very interesting (as is the high neck protector); I can’t quite see how they would work. Especially if the cuirass was made from a stiff material.
The short tunic, but very baggy trousers and high boots look like the depictions of Eastern Iranians at Persepolis.

The tiara is an odd shape. The flat top may suggest some king of protection under the presumably soft hat. Am I right in thinking this is 4th century?

p.s. I haven’t forgotten the Assyrian thread! I really need to get all my images together and post them.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I've been thinking about theseemingly sleeved quirass too,and i suggest that it might not be sleeved,but showing the back of the yoke. Greek artists could show the front of the one shoulder and the back of the other,when trying to paint side views of hoplites. This made some quirass depictions very off to me,until i understood what they were doing.
Another idea is that the quirass is meant to b quilted,and the quilting is just not represented. It has similar color to the persian quirasses on the alexander mosaic, and i think that quilting as tight as is shown there might produce something relatively flexible. On the other hand,those have clearly a yoke and not sleeves!
In the first image the neck quard is considerably smaller than in the sarcophagus,too. perhaps it's a bit too exagerated.
Khairete
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

might not be sleeved,but showing the back of the yoke

I actually never thought they were sleeved until you guys mentioned it, but that this is simply an extension of the yoke folding over the arm and hollow beneath. This might be a seperate piece as in many steppe armors. I have not sat down and analyzed it, but it would be good to see if this armor can be reconciled with the armor that Xenophon suggests for cavalry. The neck-guard seems to be a feature in common, and I'm not sure exactly what Xenophon had in mind with his shoulder modification.

[MeinPanzer]

Ive always found this one to be particularly interesting.
Note the Pilos helmet on the Greek and the cuirass worn by the Persian with pteryges and a very high neck protector, it seems to have sleeves, but this is debatable. He also has a knee length tunic with what appears to be a 'sawtooth' edging.

Surely he is wearing trousers rather than a long tunic, like the rider on the Canakkale sarcophagus? It seems like it would be very difficult to mount or maneuver on a horse with such a long tunic.

Yes, that is one of my favourites!
The sleeves are very interesting (as is the high neck protector); I can’t quite see how they would work. Especially if the cuirass was made from a stiff material.
The short tunic, but very baggy trousers and high boots look like the depictions of Eastern Iranians at Persepolis.

The tiara is an odd shape. The flat top may suggest some king of protection under the presumably soft hat. Am I right in thinking this is 4th century?

Yes, this sarcophagus is dated to the 4th c. BC. The rider isn't wearing high boots; he's wearing greaves and shoes. He is a very heavily armoured individual: his mount wears a prometopidion, and a white band painted on the horse's breast may have been intended to show a prosternidion.

Casabonne and Gabrielli have recently suggested that this type of cuirass be connected with a complex panoply called a suhattu in a Babylonian text that lists, among other pieces of equipment:

One suhattu
One neck protector of suhattu
One headdress of suhattu

I think this link is a bit tenuous, but it is remarkable how consistent the depictions of such cuirasses are. I also have a hard time believing that the shoulder pieces/sleeves are intended to be yokes, considering that on three seals that I know of, cavalrymen wearing such cuirasses are depicted attacking foes who wear actual T&Y cuirasses which are rendered with no difficulty, just like in Greek art. It should be noted as well that a relief from Persepolis shows an infantryman (the only depiction of an infantryman wearing this cuirass that I know of) wearing just such armour with a high neck guard, but without such sleeves; this leads me to believe that these shoulder pieces were especially for cavalrymen, who could afford to wear a heavier or more cumbersome panoply.

I have not sat down and analyzed it, but it would be good to see if this armor can be reconciled with the armor that Xenophon suggests for cavalry. The neck-guard seems to be a feature in common, and I'm not sure exactly what Xenophon had in mind with his shoulder modification.

Xenophon's account is problematic. He talks about a covering for the neck, but he says that if it's properly made it will cover the rider's face up to the nose. And the description of cheir armour doesn't fit either, because he says that it protects the shoulder, arm, elbow, and fingers; that it stretches and bends; and that it covers the opening under the arm left by the cuirass. He clearly refers to the hoop armour for limbs which became more widespread in the Hellenistic period, and not a covering for the upper arm, as seen on the Canakkale rider.