Single Combat during the Trojan War

[Matthew Amt]

I can't forget Velikovski, because James IS in fact revising that very chronology originally penned down by Velikovski.

Well, I'd have to go back and re-read James et al. again to be sure, but the impression I recall is that they noticed discrepancies on their own. They certainly knew about Velikovski, but they were not building on his work.

What do you mean by 'everything'? The complete chronology of Egypt, the Near East as well as Mediterranean Europe? I can't believe that.

The little list of areas with chronology problems that I collated includes Greece, the Balkans, Asia Minor, Syria, Israel, Mesopotamia, Arabia, Nubia, Libya, Spain, Italy, Sicily, Sardinia, Malta, Crete, Cyprus, and of course Egypt. Western/northern Europe isn't completely free, but tends to be more independent of Egypt just because of the distance and lesser amount of influence. Which of course gives the impression of that area being "primitive" because things like the Naue II type sword showing up several centuries later than it does in Greece! Obviously that's silly, but it's taken as dogma. The Pass Lueg helmet, dated to 1200 BC, is clearly a close relation or immediate ancestor to the triangular-crested Villanovan helmets from Italy, which are 8th century. Other finds and aspects that demonstrate the problems include pottery, architecture and construction methods, metalwork, jewelry, ivory carvings, artwork, military equipment, even alphabets. So it very much is an "everything" problem, and while "I can't believe that" is a perfectly understandable response, it becomes an institutionalized reaction. People who want to solve the problem get marginalized and ridiculed. Healthy skepticism and wariness is good, but objectivity and fairness are essential.

Sorry Matt, I think you are confusing 'archaeological information' (of which there is indeed plenty) with 'historical information' (which is what I was talking about). We simply do not have any written source from mainland Europe that can tell us something about dates, kings, the lot.

OH! Yes, mea culpa, I was lumping everything together, my bad. You're right, there's nothing written from that area, and even from a few others. So we end up with a huge dependence on Egypt.

Homeros wrote a lot later, even if you shorthen the chronology.

The Trojan War is on one side of the "Dark Age" gap, while Homer is on the other. Chop out the gap, or most of it, and at the very least he is a LOT closer to the events.

We have Egypt and we pray that that chronology is right (but we almost know for certain that it isn't) and we compare everyting else to that. But even if we can shorthen that one, AND make it fit with the chronology of everything else, than we still have nothing about the Trojan War, right? So how do we date that one if we cant match it with any available source? We still have to decide which layer best fits the account of Homer. Has anyone done that with absolute certainty?

There's still debate about the various layers at Troy (IF it IS Troy, ha!), and little of that will really change in *relative* terms. The layer that is said to correspond with the War probably still does. Only its absolute date will change, i.e., "1200 BC" to something like 900 BC instead. Interestingly, I can remember years ago when the date for the Trojan War was said to be as late as 1050. Then it crept back to the 12th century, holding pretty steady at 1175 or 1184 for a while. Now it's a solid 1200. No idea why that has happened!

Just asking, I'm absolutely NO specialist in Bronze Age Greece and I'll read everything you throw at me.
I'm just a wary historian. :wink:

Understood! Heck, I'm not even a historian at all, so I can only guess how scary and unbelievable this must be to a professional. We're talking about major careers crashing down, after all. (Sorry, I can't help cackling evilly at this point!) Well, I better end here, or we'll be at it for days! And my boss is bound to notice...

Valete,

Matthew