Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand.

[MonsGraupius]

So you agree the Brigantes, are likely to have seen the defeat of the ninth as an opportunity to push the Romans out of Britain.

Obviously I do not agree, as that is the opposite of what I wrote above.

Then it is hard to know what you are saying. The Romans, who had very little respect of women, treated the British QUEEN boudica with brutality ignored agreements etc., and you are arguing that it would make the British QUEEN of the Brigantes more pro-Roman.

I cannot fathom how you would come to that view.

Why did the ninth "withdraw to the encampment".

Because they had just been defeated?

They were still an operational force, the infantry were defeated, the Cavalry raced for the security of the wall, as all Romans do when they cannot win ... they were the cavalry, which is what everyone maintains was with Suetonius. The two groups are in almost the same position, except the Ninth had the security of their camp (built by their infantry, because cavalry are too good for hard graft), and likewise Suetonius has his cavalry, who are likewise looking for a good place to hide.

EVEN if we just look at this as a standard military operation. Suetonius is going to do the standard thing and find a secure site for the night. You cannot argue against that ... because that is the assumption of every Romanist ... Romans, when facing attack by the energy, as Suetonius clearly was, slept in secure camps. So, WHERE IS YOUR CAMP? Where is even the slightest evidence of any encampments between London and the army in Wales?

You have absolutely NOTHING! You have no place for Suetonius ... and the only secure "camp" is going to be to use the Thames as a defensive line, and to retire behind that.

Then having retired behind the Thames and blocked all the fords, Suetonius is now in an area free from the risk of attack. So, there is no need for encampments. And, if he quickly gets to Calleva, we can explain the total lack of encampments to support this crazy idea that Suetonius went north, by the simple fact, Suetonius was safe behind the walls of Calleva, and his army were marching South along the border of Wales through area that was controlled by the Romans.

No, it takes 2-3 days to move camp.

Just to be clear here - are you suggesting that while Roman infantry could march 15 miles a day, they would then have to wait for two days for their baggage to catch up with them, before making camp? What would they be doing for those days? Where would they be sleeping in the meantime?

You'll be aware that most other people believe Roman soldiers carried much of their kit and put the rest on baggage mules, and could therefore move considerably faster than you are claiming? I mean, this is not a wildly outlandish idea or anything...

Of course not, they would go back and forth with the baggage train and indeed, at times they were the people carrying the supplies.

That is why the Romans had to control an area before moving camp. Standard military practice.

And your argument is that the Romans never built walls ...

SIGH!

OK, let's try and reframe this a bit. If you can restrain your urge to make bizarre non sequiturs and so on:

Since believe that Suetonius Paulinus probably withdrew west from London to Silchester (not, as I say, a madly unusual idea), where do you think he fought the final battle? (the actual subject of this thread...)

"where do you think he fought the final battle?" The two options from Calleva, is that Boudica crosses ... perhaps around Oxford and then the two armies meet on the rigdeway hills (Berkshire downs according to OS), or that Suetonius cross the Thames above Goring and then heads toward Boudica.

I have looked at sites on the Ridgeway hills and although some look tempting, there is not the slightest archaeological evidence of any battle**.

I would therefore suggest, having regrouped with his infantry, having twisted a few local elites to supply axillaries, having gained as much intelligence as he can about the Iceni, Suetonius, decides to draw Boudica into battle. Presumably, he had a plan as to where. What I think we can say, is that, having almost certainly taken down the bridges over the Thames, and the fords on the lower Thames, being as difficult for him as for Boudica, he would have made for some crossing point between Goring and Oxford. The classic crossing point is Wallingford. However, the Iceni would know that, and could also use that to lure him into a trap. So, Suetonius probably chose an obscure ford to cross the Thames, of which there are a number.

Whatever the scenario, I think we can be sure that Suetonius crosses the river Kennet at Aldermaston Wharf.
If Suetonius is crossing the Thames, then he would have gone through Streatley
If Suetonius still held Dorchester, and the ford (probably bridge ... as they hated fords) was still intact, then that looks a possible crossing so it is possible he goes to Dorchester. However he may also have crossed at Wallingford, and based on names, there were other fords every few miles along the Thames (Shillingford, Appleford), all of which he could have used. However I should say here, that fords move over time and old ones disappear and new ones appear. So there could be a crossing point anywhere in this section.

This places him at the foot of the Chiltern hills ... from where I have to leave it to those with more knowledge of the area.

**Which does not mean no evidence, but without archaeological finds associated with a battle it would be daft to propose them.

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The problem with this discussion is that we have two fundamentally differing and incompatible interpretations of the evidence.  I set out below what I believe to be MonsGraupius' position, which I have culled from his various posts.  I offer it without comment and, as it has been gathered piecemeal, there may be omissions or errors.  If I am mistaken on any point, I will no doubt be corrected.

Upon hearing of the threat to Colchester (or, perhaps, the fall of the colony and the defeat of Cerialis.  I am not sure of this.), Suetonius withdrew his campaigning army from North Wales and set off with it down Watling Street to London.  As his cavalry moved faster than the infantry, which was also encumbered by a full baggage train, he travelled with the cavalry ahead of the infantry.  In the meantime, Boudica and her forces, having sacked Colchester, had spread across the country and had attacked St. Albans, after which she advanced on London.  Suetoonius and his cavalry passed through the enemy surrounding St. Albans and arrived in London first.  His infantry, with the enemy occupying the country ahead of it, diverted down the Fosse Way to Cirencester, then branched off to Calleva and thence to London.  Suetonius, having decided that he could not make London his seat of battle, withdrew south of the Thames to Calleva, detaching contingents to guard the various crossing points across the Thames.  He then waited several months and then, with a force of about 10,000 men (I am not sure how many he would have had when he first withdrew), he crossed the Thames to confront the rebels.  There was an earlier suggestion that Boudica may have crossed the Thames, possibly at Oxford, so that the final battle may have taken place south of the river, but I don't think that that was persisted with.

I think that that is a fair summary.

No, I'm saying that Suetonius arrives in London after rushing there. Which means he did not have his baggage train and I suggest that it was only Cavalry, but it becomes the same scenario even if he has infantry. The key is he decides to abandon London, and he decides he will not use St.Albans as his "seat of war".

The key point, is that he does not feel he is able to secure London. So either he didn't have the time to build secure defences, or he lacked the means (no infantry). In either case, he is clearly in a location which he cannot defend ... and the obvious move is for him to hop across the Thames.

After the ninth infantry are massacred we have: "Alarmed by this disaster and by the fury of the province which he had goaded into war by his rapacity, the procurator Catus crossed over into Gaul." ... so we can assume every high ranking Roman was heading the same way to Gaul.

We also see where the priority was when he got to London:

"Nor did the tears and weeping of the people, as they implored his aid, deter him from giving the signal of departure and receiving into his army all who would go with him. Those who were chained to the spot by the weakness of their sex, or the infirmity of age, or the attractions of the place, were cut off by the enemy. Like ruin fell on the town of Verulamium, for the barbarians, who delighted in plunder and were indifferent to all else, passed by the fortresses with military garrisons, and attacked whatever offered most wealth to the spoiler, and was unsafe for defence. "

It seems likely in that situation, that whatever force Suetonius has, is ordered to spend time rescuing all the Roman elite (relatives & friends of Suetonius and Catus) north of the Thames and all their belongings ... at least until the Iceni get to London.

So, Suetonius would not be allowed to simply block the crossings over the Thames, instead he would be ordered to hold the various bridges and fords, to allow as many of the Roman elite north of the Thames to escape Boudica, whereupon at the last moment, Suetonius  tears down any bridges and makes the fords uncrossable ... but still leaving many Romans behind.

At that point all those Roman elite like Catus will be telling him, in no uncertain terms, that Suetonius must at all costs prevent the Iceni following Catus etc, or in any other way, preventing the cowards crossing the Channel to Gaul.

Whether Suetonius likes it or not ... the political imperative of the situation ends up with him south of the Thames, guarding the fords. It doesn't matter the order of events, it doesn't even matter what forces he has or hasn't got, he is stuck holding the Thames whilst Catus and his cronies make their escape. Fortunately for Suetonius, the Thames was the ideal barrier to prevent Boudica advancing further and that enabled Suetonius to regroup sufficiently to take the battle back to Boudica.