Boeotian horsemen 4th century BC

[bachmat66]

hello,
I am looking for sources - images - of the Boeotian horsemen, i.e., period sculpture, paintings etc. Time period is late V century BC until middle of IV century BC. especially during the times of Epaminondas
Any reference material will be much appreciated -
Please note that I am not looking for modern reconstructions unless these reconstructions come from a scientific, eg archaeological literature, publication.

[PMBardunias]

I don't have the reference,I imagine it is Xenophon, but there was mentionthat the Boeotian cavalry had white (silver?) helmets. You can probably track it down.

By the way, your work is great- my mother is Polish, so I am attached to the subject matter. If you would like a suggestion for a subject, I have never seen a really well done image of the cavalry panoply advocated by Xenophon:

Xenophon on Horsemanship 12.1
We want to explain also how a man who is to face danger on horseback should be armed. We say, then, that in the first place his breastplate must be made to fit his body. For the wellfitting breastplate is supported by the whole body, whereas one that is too loose is supported by the shoulders only, and one that is too tight is rather an encumbrance than a defence. [2] And, since the neck is one of the vital parts, we hold that a covering should be available for it also, standing up from the breastplate itself and shaped to the neck. For this will serve as an ornament, and at the same time, if properly made, will cover the rider's face, when he pleases, as high as the nose. [3] For the helmet we consider the Boeotian pattern the most satisfactory: for this, again, affords the best protection to all the parts that project above the breastplate without obstructing the sight. As for the pattern of the breastplate, it should be so shaped as not to prevent the wearer from sitting down or stooping. [4] About the abdomen and middle and round that region let the flaps be of such material and such a size that they will keep out missiles.[5] And as a wound in the left hand disables the rider, we also recommend the piece of armour invented for it called the “hand.” (gauntlet) For it protects the shoulder, the arm, the elbow, and the fingers that hold the reins; it will also extend and fold up; and in addition it covers the gap left by the breastplate under the armpit.[6] But the right hand must be raised when the man intends to fling his javelin or strike a blow. Consequently that portion of the breastplate that hinders him in doing that should be removed; and in place of it there should be detachable flaps at the joints, in order that, when the arm is elevated, they may open correspondingly, and may close when it is lowered.[7] For the fore-arm it seems to us that the piece put over it separately like a greave is better than one that is bound up together with a piece of armour. The part that is left exposed when the right arm is raised should be covered near the breastplate with calf-skin or metal; otherwise the most vital part will be unprotected. [8] Since the rider is seriously imperilled in the event of his horse being wounded, the horse also should be armed, having head, chest, and thigh pieces: the last also serve to cover the rider's thighs. But above all the horse's belly must be protected; for this, which is the most vital part, is also the weakest. It is possible to make the cloth serve partly as a protection to it. [9] The quilting of the cloth should be such as to give the rider a safer seat and not to gall the horse's back. Thus horse and man alike will be armed in most parts.[10] But the rider's shins and feet will of course be outside the thigh-pieces. These too can be guarded if boots made of shoe-leather are worn: there will thus be armour for the shins and covering for the feet at the same time. [11] These are the defensive arms which with the gracious assistance of heaven will afford protection from harm. For harming the enemy we recommend the sabre (Machaira) rather than the sword, because, owing to his lofty position, the rider will find the cut with the Persian sabre more efficacious than the thrust with the sword. [12] And, in place of the spear with a long shaft, seeing that it is both weak and awkward to manage, we recommend rather the two Persian javelins of cornel wood. For the skilful man may throw the one and can use the other in front or on either side or behind. They are also stronger than the spear and easier to manage.[13] We recommend throwing the javelin at the longest range possible. For this gives a man more time to turn his horse and to grasp the other javelin. We will also state in a few words the most effective way of throwing the javelin. If a man, in the act of advancing his left side, drawing back his right, and rising from his thighs, discharges the javelin with its point a little upwards, he will give his weapon the strongest impetus and the furthest carrying power; it will be most likely to hit the mark, however, if at the moment of discharge the point is always set on it.

[Mythos_Ruler]

I think Xenophon is describing his "ideal" cavalry man, rather than what actually existed. Please confirm.

[PMBardunias]

I think Xenophon is describing his "ideal" cavalry man, rather than what actually existed. Please confirm.

Surely they existed, the question is how common a man would have all of those elements in one.

[bachmat66]

Czolem,
Paul, thanks for your response and thank you very much for your praise! And nice to meet a fellow Pole
I have been considering v Xenophon, and your list here will come very handy. I have been playing around with the Xenophon's 'ideal cavalryman' in the Persian Achaemenid context, neckguard and arm-defenses etc. I have couple drawings of those guys already. I think that these thigh protectors for the rider look very similar to the Argentine (Chilean, Brazilian etc) gaucho brush rawhide leg protectors - actually the entire old gaucho outfit looks somewhat very much like the ancient steppe-Iranian-Greek outfit - including the jaquima aka hackamore and the third rein etc. The horses - el criollo or mangalarga etc - are jsut as splendid and ancient in lineages (the old types, without the English thoroughbred and Arab horses mixes)
I also have been looking for a suitable horse to portray as a mount for these riders and I think those Spanish Barb Mustangs from Montana,Wyoming, Cerbat or Kiger (Arizona) will make excellent type to use for a reconstruction of such cavalry, I do not think so called British ponies have anything in common with ancient Mediterranean and Western Asian horse types - dr Deb Bennett has a very plausible description of these ancient types in her book Conquerors.

I have the Osprey book on the Magna Graecia cavalryman, allegedly the Tarentine horseman - it has some images that can be useful in this reconstruction eg the chest protection aka poitrail, and some others. ther is a preview on google-books http://books.google.com/books?id=2_xokG ... ey&f=false
Actually I am after the images and depictions from around the Agesilaus campaigns in Asia until the battle of Leuctra - there are some beautiful vase/pottery images but from the VI and V centuries BC.
so we shall see...
ps
by the way anyone got the 'Byzantine Cavalryman', AD 900-1200, from Osprey? And I am waiting for the army of Herod the Great, coming in November to these shores...
ps'
for those who like comics and manga- there is a very nicely scripted and drawn Japanese manga titled 'Historie' dealing with the life of young Eumenes of Cardia, starting form his childhood in Cardia , the story is ongoing, it is now up to his work for king Philip and can be read here - caveat, it is hundreds of pages of drawing and text - it has not been published in the US yet.
http://www.onemanga.com/Historie/

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Xenophon desrcribes a cataphract of his time. Paul,i don't believe there existed such cavalry in Greece,and anywhere else for that matter...boeotian helmet with iranian cataphract equipment...
The early boeotian stelae showing cavalrymen unfortunately show them naked,with only a chlamys and one or two spears. Horse completely unarmoured.
Now in the book you posted,there is a stele in Thebes with a macedonian era cavalryman,which most probably shows accurately thefamous boeotian men: Boeotian helmet,bronze cuirass,xyston and kopis(machaira,as Xenophon suggests). He also has a cloak,and indeed macedonian cavalrymen seem to have been fighting with cloaks. They wear them both in the Alexander sarcophagus and in the Alexander mosaic. Probably the boeotians wore them too.
Khaire
Giannis

[bachmat66]

Xenophon desrcribes a cataphract of his time. Paul,i don't believe there existed such cavalry in Greece,and anywhere else for that matter...boeotian helmet with iranian cataphract equipment...

Khaire
Giannis

you are perhaps right regarding this 'perfect' horseman of Xenophon

The early boeotian stelae showing cavalrymen unfortunately show them naked,with only a chlamys and one or two spears. Horse completely unarmoured.
Now in the book you posted,there is a stele in Thebes with a macedonian era cavalryman,which most probably shows accurately thefamous boeotian men: Boeotian helmet,bronze cuirass,xyston and kopis(machaira,as Xenophon suggests). He also has a cloak,and indeed macedonian cavalrymen seem to have been fighting with cloaks. They wear them both in the Alexander sarcophagus and in the Alexander mosaic. Probably the boeotians wore them too.
Khaire
Giannis

I did see that stelae, and been thinking about it too - I think it does not have a date ascribed to it - I also saw some articles in the Gladius-on-the-web edition that talk about the Greek and Macedonian cavalry, perhaps one should peruse them too.
By the way the horses in the Italian (Lucania) paintings shown in the book seem to be pacers.
The horse armor did exist, not like the Persian scale covers but it did exist, so then who knows...

[Paullus Scipio]

Could someone post a picture of this particular Boeotian cavalry stele, please?

[PMBardunias]

Paul,i don't believe there existed such cavalry in Greece,and anywhere else for that matter...boeotian helmet with iranian cataphract equipment...

I see no reason to assume that his depiction is fantasy- as we might in his Education of Cyrus. He is describing the best equipement one might wear, but there is no reason to expect that the reader would consider this panoply unattainable. In fact he is basically describing the Persian cavalry of his day, who were much heavier than generally known, with some Greek elements. He may have actually seen this in when Agiselaos brought over cavalry that may have picked up local bits of kit. IN fact if they needed resupply it presumably would have been Greek models. As far as I know we have no images of this justly famous contingent of foreign cavalry- from whom sparta's "fame for their cavalry" derived.

For those reading who have not seen them, here is an example of contemporary persian cavalry. They are not far from what Xenophon suggests.

[MeinPanzer]

Could someone post a picture of this particular Boeotian cavalry stele, please?

The picture in the Osprey title is pretty small, and this one (from the LIMC) isn't much better, unfortunately, but shows off the details nonetheless. It's from the museum at Thebes, though I've not seen it given a provenance (beyond Boeotian), nor a date. It looks to be a very fine stele, and I would say from the style and armament that he's probably a late 4th or early 3rd c. BC cavalryman.

[Paullus Scipio]

Thanks, Ruben, and I would 'guesstimate' a similar timeframe to yours.....

One would like to know more - for example whether there is an inscription, and whether it was found locally or not........I suspect the possibility that he is termed a 'Boeotian' cavalryman just because he's wearing a 'Boeotian' helmet. If it was in Thessaloniki Museum it would probably be labelled 'Macedonian cavalryman !'

[MeinPanzer]

Thanks, Ruben, and I would 'guesstimate' a similar timeframe to yours.....

One would like to know more - for example whether there is an inscription, and whether it was found locally or not........I suspect the possibility that he is termed a 'Boeotian' cavalryman just because he's wearing a 'Boeotian' helmet. If it was in Thessaloniki Museum it would probably be labelled 'Macedonian cavalryman !'

There are a few letters visible in the photograph - above and to the left of the horseman's head I can make out a sigma, mu, and epsilon, and below those an alpha, sigma, and perhaps am omega. It's included in the LIMC under 'Heros Equitans,' and so I guess it is presumed to be an equestrian hero stele, but only the remnants of the inscription would tell...

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I can also make out another "?" in the other side of the first line.
Thessaloniki has an important museum,since it's in Thebes,it's more probable it was found somewhere in Boeotia. The Osprey book although stating it is in Thebes,it was pointing him as an example of Macedonian cavalryman. Certainly the Hetairoi are shown with identical equipment in many cases.
But again,why should the Boeotians be different than the Hetairoi? Especially given the influenece Thebes had to Philip.
Khairete
Giannis

[hoplite14gr]

Agree that Xenophon had seen the contemporary Persian cavalry
Yet Pausanias describes that at his time (1st A.D.)that during Hyakinthia the ancient armor of a hero was paraded in Amyklae.
The conquest of Amyklae is dated between 900 to 800 B.C.
Pausanias decribes other similar items in Delphoi.
If Pausanias could see itmes so old why not Xenophon too?

Kind regards

[John Conyard]

I always think it must be a difficult thing to paint an historical breed of horse, even more so to find a modern version of an historical breed. The Thessalian horses, considered the best in Greece, were no match for the Persian horses raced against them by Xerxes.

Gratius Faliscus (Cynegetica) described Thracian horses as "easy keepers and excellent performers but with ugly necks and thin spine curvng along their backs".

Not much to go on.