Fox Crested Hoplite and vase interpretation

[nikolaos]

This picture came up in discussion a while ago, and I've run across an large high resolution example of it in the public domain on wikimedia commons:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... vre_G1.jpg

Its by the Andokides painter, its in the Louvre, and dates to 530 BCE, and was found in an Etruscan context in Vulci.

Paul, its worth a little discussion in light of our parallel conversation on the Boiotian shield. Here the fox crested hoplite's opponent has a a Boiotian shield.

I believe it is safe to say your opinion is that we have no archeological evidence for it, its just heroic representation, and doesn't represent a real artifact.

That being the case, the same is true of the fox crest.

Cole

[PMBardunias]

Cole, my biggest problem with accepting the Boeotian shield as real is that the artists themselves are often confused about its structure. There is no artistic consensus it seems on whether the shield should be held with the cut-outs up and down or side to side. The earlier Dipylon appears to be central gripped and the cut-outs are side to side- which makes sense in terms of construction and is in line with earlier "fig.8" shields. Look at this image, its hanging from a telamon, or shoulder-strap, and held on the arm not by a porpax, but by a pair of straps. (Note that this man will choke himself to death if he brings the shield to the fore since the telamon is over his head the wrong way!) I have a hard time believing that so long after the porpax had been developed there would be a shield that was expected to be used apparently just like an aspis that did not incoporate it. That strap-system is commonly seen on depictions of pelta as well, and could be a real feature of pelta, but I have a suspicion that the greeks are simply misunderstanding a double-strap single grip on the pelta.

As to the crests, they may well be fantasy. You notice that the double serpent crest is shown turned 90 degrees from what would have been a transverse crest to show the details. The conventional twisting of figures on vases- derived from earlier Egyptian or near eastern convention I assume- leads to all sorts of problems for artists depicting hoplites. (and more problems for modern authors trying to decifer them)

[nikolaos]

Paul B,

Your post has given me pause for thought, and I suppose the reason its never struck me as funny is that I spent a couple of years fighting with an early Italian Renaissance shield. The shield is oval, you can see a good picture of them in Piero della Francesca's Victory of Heraclius used by two central figures:

http://www.wga.hu/art/p/piero/francesc/ ... atlehl.jpg

They are lightly curved, and the grip can be oriented either longitudinally as in the example here, perpendicular to the long run of the shield, or centre grip (examples of all three exist in art). Apart from the cutouts they are very similar in frontal surface area and profile to a Boiotian.

I oriented the grip on mine longitudinally, but found depending on the circumstances I had to hold it different ways:

- If I had to cover ground or I wanted to use it offensively, I had to bend my arm 90 degrees. This would correspond to the cutouts up and down on a Boiotion.
- If I was using it defensively, I would orient my arm up or down, depending on the situation. This would correspond to a side by side cutouts on a Boiotian.

It was a good shield, and I got a lot of mileage out of it. This may explain my gut telling me the Boiotian is functional given the depictions I have seen.

Your point about the telamon is well taken, but I believe this can readily be explained as an artistic problem. I've used guiges (the medieval equivalent) on everything from a buckler, to a heater, to my oval shield. Not a single medieval depiction of the guige would allow sufficient play for you to do a damn thing with the shield. You either have to make it ludicrously long to fight with it around you, which I don't buy, or accept that its not actually meant to be used while fighting, just when you're lugging the damn thing around. So, I'm willing to buy it as a artistic snafu. After all there are some funny depictions of the hanging of the aspis (without even starting into the off centre propax minefield, which I'm steering well clear of

Of course that opens the door to counter that maybe the shield's just that too, but I have a harder time with that. My experience with medieval art leads me to believe that artists tend to produce images that fit an idealized norm of real accoutrements attractive to their customers, and oddities get dropped. The Chalcis hoard of renaissance armour is a good example of that. There are a boat load of butt ugly and funny looking helmets no renaissance artist ever saw fit to put in a painting, but they exist, which is pretty convincing to me that the weird stuff doesn't tend to make the cut.

Quite a few "basic" corinthians don't tend to make the cut into the vase art, probably because they're too ugly for any self respecting artist to want to represent And this doesn't even begin to address the effect of the skill and experience of an artist affecting the accuracy of his art, and the limitations of the techniques at hand.

I'm well on the way to rambling, its been a long week, but in closing...

For my own part, the two surviving aspides don't strike me as a significant sample set, especially as the Vatican one is Etruscan, and I'm not sure of the provenance of the Basel shield. If there were a hunded survivals as a sample set a more compelling argument could be made one way or the other, but in the abscence the combination of the art and the utility of the shield strike me as sufficient to say they might have existed with enough confidence to want to spend the time and energy to build one.

And thats great, and makes for good interpretation. A "funny" shield is a good conversation start and tool for educating the the public about the uncertainty of recreating historical artifacts and undertstanding historical events. Historical opinion is far too often presented as certainty.

But then I had my opinion on how to do good research from working in nuclear physics. There's a reason nobody in the field refers to the laws of physics anymore. Thats just sloppy certainty. You get a theory, it has to be falsifiable, you gather evidence to support it. But even if is "proven", its still a theory, still subject to question, revision, and so forth as new experimentation or evidence arise.

The same should be true of history, but far too often I see unsupported assertions, refusal to accept the possibility that one's dearly held position might possibly be wrong, attacking the ideas of others without supporting ones own, and outright lies (OK, that happens in physics too, cold fusion and all, but not as often

Cole,
Definitely well on his way to rambling...

[PMBardunias]

the two surviving aspides don't strike me as a significant sample set, especially as the Vatican one is Etruscan, and I'm not sure of the provenance of the Basel shield. If there were a hunded survivals as a sample set a more compelling argument could be made one way or the other

Cole, there are far more than two surviving aspides. Send me an email and I'll send you an image of about 17 being exhumed at Olympus- makes the pulse quicken. I have heard there are over 40.

I've used guiges (the medieval equivalent) on everything from a buckler, to a heater, to my oval shield. Not a single medieval depiction of the guige would allow sufficient play for you to do a damn thing with the shield.

I've been questioning the conventional wisdom of a shoulderstrap being used in conjunction with the sarissa for this reason. Do you have an opinion?

The parallel with the renaissance shield is an interesting one. Do you know much of the evolution of this shield and the grip system? The renaissance also shows a force that could be at work here. There are many armours that arer a la Romana and intentionally anachronistic. Usually these are parade armours, but sometimes the fashion is taken into the field. As late as the end of the 17th C we see a bizarre resurgence of scale armour in Poland based on their percieved descent from the Sarmations shown on Trajan's column. Perhaps the boeotian existed in this manner.


My problem with the boeotian is not so much that is could not be used, but that the artists, at least to me, seem to be unaware of how they were used in many cases. I'm much more inclined to believe the oval type, held longitudinally, is real than I am the "boeotians" that look just like an aspis, but for a pair of cut-outs. This would greatly weaken the shield to no purpose- especially if held with the cut outs up and down, exposing your throat and groin!

Also, Dipylon or Boeotian shields are seen as blazons on aspises. It strikes me as odd to have an alternative contemporary shield type as a blazon.

Historical opinion is far too often presented as certainty. But then I had my opinion on how to do good research from working in nuclear physics. There's a reason nobody in the field refers to the laws of physics anymore. Thats just sloppy certainty. You get a theory, it has to be falsifiable, you gather evidence to support it. But even if is "proven", its still a theory, still subject to question, revision, and so forth as new experimentation or evidence arise.

That Copenhagen gang seemed pretty sure of themselves :wink: By way of general disclaimer, unless I quote someone, everything I write is simply my opinion. Science is an adversarial process. I'm a biologist, and, though I may make a preemptive strike in a paper of mine to point out a weakness in a study, it is my job to present the findings in the most persuasive manner. Same here, but I have on many occaisions been convinced of another's point of view.

[Gorgon]

I'm a biologist, and, though I may make a preemptive strike in a paper of mine to point out a weakness in a study, it is my job to present the findings in the most persuasive manner. Same here, but I have on many occaisions been convinced of another's point of view.

I'm a geologist. Do I see a pattern here? :wink:

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Does anything look familiar?

First of all,I must say that it seems more like a dog to me and i find it more probable as dogs are more frequently shown as shield emblems too,but it doesn't matter. The Spanish rule!
Khairete
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

I'm a geologist. Do I see a pattern here?

Would that be the "learned men seeking to bring their understanding of diverse fields to the study of ancient cultures," or the "men with no training dabbling in a field for which they are unqualified to opine?"


Giannis,

The animal probably is a dog, the curved tail was a prominent feature on ancient breeds- I have a basenji that looks like she walked off of an Egyptian tomb wall and her tail is corkscrew.

Those helmets are great. The dog is my favorite, but the original of that upright ram's headed helm is one of the most impressive I've seen.

[Gorgon]

I'm a geologist. Do I see a pattern here?

Would that be the "learned men seeking to bring their understanding of diverse fields to the study of ancient cultures," or the "men with no training dabbling in a field for which they are unqualified to opine?"

In my case probably the later, although having done research in geoarchaeology I'd like to think it's the former. :wink:

[nikolaos]

>Would that be the "learned men seeking to bring their understanding of diverse fields to
>the study of ancient cultures," or the "men with no training dabbling in a field for which
>they are unqualified to opine?"

LOL! Probably both Since I've given up being learned and am a full time people manager now I need an outlet for my creative energy

The Spaniards do indeed rock. Those crests are phenomenal, and the Corinthian in the centre that is so ugly only its mother could love it is great!

Paul B,

On the digs, thats very exciting, I look forward to seeing the results!

On the Boiotian, I do see your point about the round ones. There is a possibility worth considering though. What if the Aspis, rather than being a separate development, is an evolutionary successor of the Boiotian shield? I.e. As phalanx warfare developed (slowly... my opinion the old shield better suited to "heroic" combat slowly changed so that it would serve better in the new role...

A possible place to look for evidence of this would be in Homer. What noun(s) does Homer use to describe shields? Perhaps one of the Greek readers could illuminate us on the usage... If he uses a different word(s) than later source, that might point to different shields. If he uses the same word, there's an argument there for evolutionary as opposed to revolutionary shield design.

Have fun!
Cole

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Cole,Homer uses different words to describe shields,and he's actually refering to some characteristics. Like to tower shield of Ajax, or the shield of Agamemnon that protected you from the two sides, probably a reference to the very hollow eight figure shields. He's talking about shields that are carried by a telamon and their rim hits the neck and the gampes as the warrior walks. He's using adjectives like "round" and "hollow" and words like "omphalos" that could apply to an argive shield as well as to a boss in the center of a flat shield. One thing is for sure,that different kinds of shields are described. But the common adjectives could alos apply to many different kinds of shields.
Khaire
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

On the Boiotian, I do see your point about the round ones. There is a possibility worth considering though. What if the Aspis, rather than being a separate development, is an evolutionary successor of the Boiotian shield? I.e. As phalanx warfare developed (slowly... my opinion the old shield better suited to "heroic" combat slowly changed so that it would serve better in the new role...

Switch diplylon for boetian and I agree completely, for the ancestor of the aspis was probably older than the boeotian. My genral assumption on the presence of "cut outs" of any sort in these shields is that they represent a pinching of the shield material to give it depth. If you take a flat oval and pinch the sides in, the whole thing bows out- which gives you a variety of mechanical advantages.

You only need pinch one side, and a more likely progenetor of the aspis than the dipylon is the kidney shaped shields seen on the "warrior vase" (I won't put up an image because it will come up quick on a google search). I've wondered if the "V" and "U" shaped symbols on Herzsprung shields is a legacy of such a pinch. Perhaps a switch from predominantly hide, to wicker and lathe eliminates the need to pinch and gives easier bowls.

The truth is though that we don't know where the aspis comes from. it is an odd shield, with an odd grip system. There are loose analogies from Anatolia, but nothing that would clearly be an ancestor.

[hispano]

I will introduce a third point of view. This crest gave me a lot of problems when recreating it because not being known any archeological rests an interpretation had to be made and its always risky. The crest was for Eduardo, strategos from Athenea Promakhos and like to you the crest looked to us like a dog or a fox, so Eduardo gave me a drawing of what he wanted exactly and I gave it volume in the metal with the picture's result.

But on my own I intrepreted the animal as a mongoose, because of its big feet, the hairy tail of some of them, the fact that it was an animal known to greek, also because it's more "bearable" to wear on the head than a fox or a dog :lol: , but above all because it is a very agressive animal and it even attacks cobras, which makes it more interesting as an image of the warriors personality. In the pictures you have some of the images of mongooses I took as a model to make this second crest in hollow embossed metal and then riveted without any welds, while in Eduardo's crest the metal was applied to wood.

I thought about other possibilities like a squirrel or marmota, but the stare of a mongoose from the top of a helmet is more menacing

[PMBardunias]

Jose,

There are many images of dogs that look almost exactly like this crest (see below). You can see that the tail was characteristic of Greek hounds http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Dogs.htm )

That said, I will not argue with anyone who makes such an excellent crest.

[nikolaos]

Paul B,

In the case of the cutouts, I believe they are an artifact of the requirement to tension a leather shield. Given that leather stretches given how wet it is. A cutout in a frame that is under tension because it has been drawn to the leather will keep the leather taut as its moisture changes

So, imagine the Boiotian as two bows separated and stretching the leather taut. It doesn't seem unlikely to me, even the mostly round one...

Cole

[PMBardunias]

In the case of the cutouts, I believe they are an artifact of the requirement to tension a leather shield.

This makes sense for a flat shield made by stretching a rectangle of leather between two sticks, but how does it work with a shield with depth? Doesn't the shrinkage work against any attempt to bow the belly of the shield?

By the way, I should disclose that the "pinching' idea is not my own, there is a paper from the '30s describing how this is done and drawing analogy to extant shields from Africa.