The Makedonian phalanx -- why such depth?

[PMBardunias]

A coordinated run also requires to keep a good distance from the man before you or else you will be unable to stop in time. It is also very important that the men behind the second or third rank would not know when to stop, because they would not be able to see the actual enemy before the impact

This is not correct. You don’t “stop in time” because you see the enemy ranks; you stop in time because you watch the back of the man in front of you slow down. This is obvious from a traffic example. You don’t look ahead to the accident to know when to stop in the line of cars in a jam, but at the decelerating car right in front of you. Because the ability of the person in front of you to slow down is similar to your ability to slow down, all you need is enough time to perceive that he is slowing down so you can match it- a few paces will do.
Let me clear up some things about charging, because I think we are in general in agreement:

1) Charging any distance past that which it takes you to accelerate to whatever speed you want to impact the enemy line adds nothing to the force of collision. Thus a “Charge” of more than a few meters has nothing to do with impact, but must be due to other factors.

2) Men are slow; they do not gain enough energy in a charging collision to break through more than a few ranks of formed men. This has been shown many times in re-enactment.

3) As we both noted a series of impacts by individuals is not much more effective than a single impact- perhaps worse because your own men in front absorb much of the force. The force of any amount of ranks of men hitting in series is no greater than the force of any single man. The shorter the interval is between impacts the better- real short intervals will benefit from hitting while the enemy line is recovering from the previous blow, on their heels, but this effect is not really the same as adding force.

4) The only way to add the force of subsequent ranks to the forward push is to minimize the interval of impacts to the point where the mass acts as single entity- this is what we call a “crowd” (a specific meaning here referring to a lack of space between men). In this state force can transfer forward through ranks, so even small force of forward pressure by each man simply leaning forward and transferring his weight to the man in front adds up quickly to be a stronger forward pushing force than an individual impact of a running man. Just as important, this force is sustained, not an impact.

5) This basic form of a crowd leaning forward takes absolutely no training and happens all the time when people are in mass- sometimes with fatal results. Force can be increased if the crowd moves rhythmically to push/lean in unison and this will benefit from training to move in rhythm-i.e. group dances of the sort we know were common in Greece.

In the image in page 9, it is evident that the first three ranks actually do little in respect of pushing. They are just pushed from the back ranks and supported by the front ranks. This is typical untrained crowd behavior and actually contribute very little to the total force of the push. Should their stance be correct, the result would be much different, but then a strict coordination would be needed for that.

Each man adds some fraction of his body weight. Special pushing stances are less important than cohesion. The point is to transfer as much of your weight/pushing force to the man in front of you while keeping the absolute minimal distance between you and he (and the man behind you). This will dictate just how wide a range of “stances” men can assume because there is a trade-off between pushing and being close enough to transfer efficiently. You’ll note that this requirement becomes less important as you move back in rank and by the last rank. The front ranks add more force by simply standing up and transferring the force of 7-11 men behind them than they would if they adopted a stance that interfered with this transfer no matter how hard they push individually. Rear rank men have no such restriction and they should be pushing as hard as they can and in any stance that maximized pushing. One of the reenactors on here tried a collision of one man against a line standing at minimal distance. It worked perfectly as a proof of concept. When the foe ran into the front rank, the rear rank man was knocked back on his butt. I should have told them that the rear ranker needs to brace and not stand up, but the force transferred fluidly through the mass of men just like in a “Newton’s cradle” See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLZV0Y-VtGw

You also say "pushing like a crowd". This is what I perceive (correct me if I am wrong) as blind, forceful pushing. 7 or more people pushing forcibly on the back or side of a man do not allow him to coordinate his movements, attack or stop. If the enemy man for example falls or kneels, the foreman would trip over him and fall himself.

The enemy cannot kneel and will find it difficult to fall even in death when the push is at its height. He will only fall when pressure decreases, as it does rhythmically, and when that occurs the promachos is no longer being thrust forward so forcibly. The key to this, and perhaps the hardest part to grasp, is that othismos cannot occur unopposed. There will never be a case like the experiment I wrote of above where a man can run into a phalanx in this density because it will only be at this density in reaction to another phalanx being also at this density.

In order for the protostates to keep his pace and his place in the phalanx, he has to be shoved no more than centimeters. 5 quick steps back would make the whole phalanx crumble.

No advance beyond a shuffle is possible in this density- just as no retreat beyond a shuffle is possible at this density. They cannot take 5 quick steps back any faster than you can take 5 steps forward. When one side routs, breaking from the rear, then both sides loosen their order.

This is what i also propose further on, although it would need a right overlap to work and not a left one.

Not sure what you mean by “right overlap”. In terms of keeping order there is little difference, though right-over-left is a little stronger, but for other reasons I think right-over-left superior.

My only question here would be: Do you think that the "othismos" would last for a prolonged period of time or for just seconds as I proposed? My opinion, as already stated is that the men were already told whether they would push for half, one or two steps. This would make keeping order possible, but just signalling "start" and then "stop" is, to my mind, very difficult to imagine.

It could last for a very long time. I just put some data on my blog recorded from a concert where huge pressures were recorded for 85 minutes- causing many to be removed from the crowd for medical reasons. My guess is that it lasted for a period of some time and if one side did not give way, the two sides loosened up like two weary wrestlers- perhaps back to the 4-5’ or so between phalanxes that was conducive to doratismos. Then the whole thing cycled again.

I also said that such cases are at hand, but this does not mean that they were descriptions of "othismos". Pushing your foreman just enough to support and keep him in place as is proposed by all ancient and medieval tacticians is enough to account for these descriptions. It doesn't have to be "othismos" and it is very rare for a text to connect these images to "othismos".

They were definitely not true othismos, which I would define as an ability to survive and fight at crowd density for extended periods of time. They were more like what the othismos evolved out of, a proto-othismos, where lots of pushing occurred and even crowd densities were reached, but not maintained. Ammanius’ description of Strasbourg is close to what hoplite combat must have been like before true othismos (Though the fulcum was a bit different than the phalanx):
“the infantry stoutly protected their flanks by making a front of 285their bucklers joined fast together, clouds of thick dust arose. Then there were various manoeuvres, as our men now stood fast and now gave ground, and some of the most skilful warriors among the savages by the pressure of their knees tried to force their enemy back; but with extreme determination they came to hand-to hand fighting, shield-boss pushed against shield, and the sky re-echoed with the loud cries of the victors or of the falling.”

As you see, lots of pushing by individuals and even groups, very close to othismos. Hoplites could surely fight at this less dense formation as well. The key is that they can take it further- hoplites can go to 11 :lol:

As for your latter argument, I have to disagree. The hoplite phalanx, as well as the Macedonian phalanx, did not have to withstand nor exert pressure, because they were armed with spears, so their first combat technique (does it sound better than tactic?) would be to keep the enemy at spearpoint.

I agree, it is a major point where I diverge from the common portrayal. They stopped short of the enemy and engaged in doratismos before entering into othismos.

In later stages, the hoplites did attack with swords and then such a push would be possible, but hoplites relied heavily on keeping order and relying on raw strength to push is unlike any other technique they used, On the other hand withstanding such pressure is another story. To withstand the pressure allows the fighter to fight, to exert it uncontrollably is impossible without breaking ranks and endanger order.

Being crushed in a crowd like a sardine is pretty orderly, so this is no problem. Withstanding and exerting pressure is exactly the same thing in othismos. It is interesting that you “see” the need for order and cohesion for “withstanding’ but don’t realize the same rules apply for “exerting” in mass. They are the same. Here's an image done by one of our RAT members that I advised on. It shows how I envision many elements, most important how they could still fight in the press:

http://community.imaginefx.com/fxpose/j ... 47476.aspx

I also disagree with you here. Pulling up from a running charge takes fragments of a second, just the time to cover the 1-2 meters distance at that speed. Reducing the speed would also make such a technique peculiar, for it would negate any speed bonuses that might apply to the initial shock of the push. So, there was no time to fight with the spears, should we assume that running to push was the basic tactic. If you are supporting that no matter the speed of the charge, in the beginning they used their spears, and then we agree. But then, there would be no reason to immediately tighten the ranks and push the enemy, so this phase would need a command to commence. Of course it would leave the running push theory out of the scope of our conversation (I think we both agree there).

Yes. Running to charge is fine if you are fighting one man and want to bull him over, but it is worse than useless against a mass. They surely stopped short and spear fences because of the need to pack in as tight as possible before moving against the enemy. They might do this while the front rankers are spear fencing, and then move forward as a group. They could also pull up short and get themselves in order then make a shorter charge as we see on the Vyborg video (I have a link on my blog to this. It is perhaps the closest thing ever re-enacted to hoplite combat, though it is medieval: http://www.hollow-lakedaimon.blogspot.com/ )

They could move quickly into othismos with very little wait to re-order, but that would require a slow, very ordered march, probably to the sound of flutes, and would result in you enemy sometimes running away either before contact or quickly after because they cannot match your order as fast. It helps to wear red when you do this. :wink:

So, pushing en mass does not need depth but coordination? This exactly is my point. You cannot easily withstand the pressure of 8 coordinated men shoving at a command (en! dio!). On the other hand, 8 men holding their places steadfast and supporting each other with correct body stance and distances will be able to easily stop the advance of a 50 men deep uncoordinated crowd. To really push you need correct placement of the feet, your shoulders, your shield, your back has to be at a position to receive the force exerted by the man on your back. Just standing up, tight between your shield and the shield of your epistates pushing with your hands cannot do the job.

This is “common knowledge” but not true. You can find a football player to push as hard and as skilfully as he wishes and I can block him with a group of cheerleaders if they form a crowd. You need depth and/or coordination. That fact that a single man cannot break into formed men is evidence of this. Some minimal depth is needed because each man is pushing less than he would were he in a stance as you describe, but by being close they can add their pushing force while a group trying to push as individuals cannot. Thus if we graphed it out over different phalanx depths, you’d see an initial benefit to all out pushing which then starts to lose to the crowd-like group as more men are added.

Since you are a reenactor, you have to have rehearsed that. Now all this demands a rigorous training and a very ordered phase.

Not a reenactor, perhaps for Marathon though. Training is always a benefit, but the beauty of othismos is that it allows the maximum use of less well trained troops.

So, then, othismos can only work between hoplite phalanxes? This is an interesting idea, although I would expect more literary evidence to be available, if such peculiar tactics were employed during hoplite battles.

Not only against hoplites, but against any foe who does not give way before you- Persian Spara-lines at Plataea and Mycale for example. Probably many of the Persian’s troops at Thermopylae, trapped in the limited space and pushed on from behind died this way.

On the other hand I think that "othismos" as I describe it will work even against those who do not want to push and lastly, what happens if the enemy wants to push but loses and retreats?

You fight him as any heavy infantry would. The hoplite was quite capable of fighting outside of the pushing of phalanx combat. Othismos is simply a phase of battle, one that need not be achieved in all cases. It is after one side gives way that all of the ‘martial arts’ taught by hoplomachoi can be brought into play.

Yet, I would appreciate a fuller description of your proposal. As I understood (correct me if I am wrong), you suggest that "othismos" was not actually a phase that would commence after a specific order, but the natural flow of a battle of hoplites, a type of combat not feasible for phalanxes which did not agree to such a match.

Or any foe who did not give ground before your advance- this means most heavy infantry. It results from two forces trying to push each other back. If you have the tactical flexibility to spear-fight and give ground before your foes then they cannot enter othismos. Few bodies of line infantry have this flexability.

It would begin seconds or minutes after the first contact and end after many minutes of constant pushing and shoving the backs of the men in front with full force, who were protected from asphyxiation because of the shape of the shield. Did I get it right?

Or never, or almost immediately if you are a Spartan or perhaps being led by Pelopidas. There is a minimum delay in that you must pack in tight to form a crowd, but there is no maximum. Also you can do lots of pushing prior to pushing in the crowd-like state that I define as othismos. The less organized pushing, as at Strasbourg, can still be very effective- it simply is not as effective as the crowd-like pushing. You could spear fence for hours and never do it. “Full force” needs defining in this context, because each individual need not produce much force, it is the aggregate that is important.