The Makedonian phalanx -- why such depth?

[Paullus Scipio]

The file 'normally' stood 16 deep, and only closed up for action. For all other purposes it stood in 'normal' ( open) order.....

Paul, my problem with your position is not so much with the ultimate number of ranks. I think it clear that they could form in either files of 8 or 4 as need be.
Yes, varying the depth in this way is essentially a very simple system, which is almost universal. (Xenophon Cyropaedia II.3.21 for anyone who wants to look at it.) I have sent you this with explanation and diagrams, ....the meaning is so obvious... ! The final depth is largely governed by the number of men in each file, which in turn is governed by the number of age-groups called up. The number of ranks varied according to how often the file could be doubled/halved, depending in turn on how many fractions with leaders the file had ( half/quarter is usual).This results in depths of 8,10 ( only once, but probably the 'original/archaic' depth) 12 and 16 in open/normal order, halved for close combat in close order
I see no evidence of this normal, opened order you describe.
It is well described in the manuals, but since we are here discussing Greek Hoplites, there are a number of references to 'normal/open' and 'close' order in Xenophon - some of which I have referred to you in private correspondence long ago! e.g. against a Spartan attack along a road in column (Xen: VII.4.22" But the Arcadians stood firm.They formed up in close order and stood quietly...He (Spartan Archidamus) led his men up in double file, just as they were on the march, and so as the troops came to close quarters, the troops of Archidamus, marching, as they were along a road, were in column, and the Arcadians were in close order, shield to shield....."
For a reference to 'open' order Xen V.1.12 during an ambush by the Athenian Chabrias and his peltasts"...when the vanguard had gone past the ambush, Chabrias' men came out of hiding and at once hurled javelins and stones on the enemy.The Hoplites who had landed from the ships came into action simultaneously. The men in the van, who were not marching in close order, were quickly killed and among the dead were Gorgopas himself and the other (8)Spartan Homioi...."
You are assuming this in order to allow men to form 8 or so deep as just about all authors say, then have room to double down to 4 or so before charging. As far as I know there is no direct evidence for this opened order and less for a last minute closing of ranks.
see above...the Arcadians form close order just before contact, and in the other example the Spartan allies are caight in ambush in open order and there is evidently little/no time to close up...
You avoided addressing Mantinea,
No I don't 'avoid' at all....I can't refer to every battle ! Just take them up as people refer to them
where surely the lateral veering and attempts to counter it by moving whole units happened during the approach to battle- not the last 100- 150m charge. I do not believe that men would hold the 3' opened space between themselves and the next man while also attempting to cover themselves with his shield.
The 3 ft space is only in open order.At Mantinea (Thuc V.66 ff), we are told that the armies were already on the move in the final advance to contact ( i.e. had halted,'closed up', and moved off again in 'close order'. There was the famous 'rightward drift', and at this late stage Agis ordered two of his units to move left ( the sciritae and Brasideoi), and for two others who were part of the right to pull out of line and fill the gap. At such a late stage in the advance to contact, with the armies probably not much more than 100-200 yds apart, the two regimental commanders refused to move, and a gap duly opened up which the enemy exploited.( Notice that unlike in Macedonian/Hellenistic times, there was no drill to expand laterally) I would agree all units were most likely in close order. What is your point?The number of men in a file had to be somewhat flexible or else how could the allies expect the Thebans to be able to choose between forming not more than 16 deep or forming deeper (25?) as they did?

I have to rush out now....give me the reference and I'll look it up and explain... :wink: