04-11-2009, 11:46 AM
I hope this doesn't seem as just another attack on on poor old Scipio, so to state my position positively it is that Greek authors state the depth of a phalanx as the actual fighting depth not a notional double spaced marching depth i.e. the default position.
If Scipio is basing his theories on passages in the Cyropaedia then I must ask him to give us the quotes; not because I think they will prove flawed but because I have no access to that work and even at uni did not relish the 'wade'.
The closest to an infantry drill from Xenophon that I have comes in 'The constitution of the Lacedaimonians' chapters 10 and 11, I think, where aside from decribing the level of officering he details the measures taken when meeting the enemy on the march. The enomotae wheel into their positions on a frontage of six, three or and here the text is corrupt and whilst the Loeb suggests two I think one more likely for reasons of symmetry. It is obvious that the enomotia could form on a single man frontage notional thirty-six man depth (never occurs in the texts, though) three men would be the normal depth of twelve and six by half-files to form a 'thin' line. Incidently, he also describes countermarching by rank so not all drill was by file. What he does not describe is the doubling of density by the interspersion of half march-file. He assumes the line is formed in fighting order. The problem here is that if the Spartans are thirty-six deep on Scipio's model they fight eighteen deep but every other file is headed by a non-officer, in fact the weakest men in the formation. Given Xenophon's repeated stressing of the strength of the Spartan system being the fact that all the files are led by officers and that makes the proposed drill unlikely.
Unless there is something in Aelian, which I lack, (I have read some books, honest) all the drills for forming closer order are by the men stepping closer together in both dimensions. I instinctively prefer Scipio's notion of files inteposing themselves though certainly at more than 100 yards, having your own supports running back through your formation and then having to half your files with alot of men with pointy sticks running at you would need more 'sang-froid' than most hoplites possessed. You not only have to achieve the formation but it also has to 'set', like a rugby scrum ; one need only watch a game involving the undersized scrum of our antipodean cousins pushing prematurely at a formed but not yet 'set' English scrum (and then being awarded the penalty by a blind South African ref with... I digress). The risk would be magnified in the face of cavalry and the deep formations favoured by the Thebans, quite successfully (dammit) would actually be riskier to execute; it would take eight times as long for the Thebans to reduce to twenty-five ranks as a 'standard' phalanx to go to four and it brings the wrong men to the front. At Leuctra the Sacred Band formed the cutting edge of the Theban 'embolon' ; now, it could be that they halved their files and charged and then their rear-support finished doubling and charged into their rear but that would make for a strange tactic although the Theban attack does seem to grow in strength I would rather interpret that as the presure from the rear buiding gradually in the othismos rather than a sudden rush from the rear that would disorder the Sacred Band.
Flicking through Xenophon's 'Hellenica' I find no instances of light troops actually fighting in front of the phalanx; they appear harassing marches but not the approach of the enemy hoplites so I wonder whether that is just modern interpretation rather than ancient practice. Indeed during the assault on the Piraeus rebels II 4? the light troops are behind the hoplites the oligarchs fifty shields deep; if this is at double spacing then why aren't the lights out front instead of where as Theramenes observes they are useless?
That anomalies may still exist I don't doubt for instance Thucydides' Spartans on a frontage of four! Though it is admitted that he is confused somewhere.
If you have a reference for a detailed map of Nemea that would be good to look at as Xenophon does give numbers and a depth for the coalition, sixteen, but the Boeotians went 'much deeper', etc. but without a picture of the terrain it is pretty pointless. this cannot have been a featureless plain as the Allied approach was a surprise, did the Spartans not believe in vedettes? And the Spartans managed to catch the victorious allies unawares and in the flank.
Maybe if we restrict ourselves to a proper look at one instance things will seem less antagonistic.
The Macedonians will have to wait a bit.
If Scipio is basing his theories on passages in the Cyropaedia then I must ask him to give us the quotes; not because I think they will prove flawed but because I have no access to that work and even at uni did not relish the 'wade'.
The closest to an infantry drill from Xenophon that I have comes in 'The constitution of the Lacedaimonians' chapters 10 and 11, I think, where aside from decribing the level of officering he details the measures taken when meeting the enemy on the march. The enomotae wheel into their positions on a frontage of six, three or and here the text is corrupt and whilst the Loeb suggests two I think one more likely for reasons of symmetry. It is obvious that the enomotia could form on a single man frontage notional thirty-six man depth (never occurs in the texts, though) three men would be the normal depth of twelve and six by half-files to form a 'thin' line. Incidently, he also describes countermarching by rank so not all drill was by file. What he does not describe is the doubling of density by the interspersion of half march-file. He assumes the line is formed in fighting order. The problem here is that if the Spartans are thirty-six deep on Scipio's model they fight eighteen deep but every other file is headed by a non-officer, in fact the weakest men in the formation. Given Xenophon's repeated stressing of the strength of the Spartan system being the fact that all the files are led by officers and that makes the proposed drill unlikely.
Unless there is something in Aelian, which I lack, (I have read some books, honest) all the drills for forming closer order are by the men stepping closer together in both dimensions. I instinctively prefer Scipio's notion of files inteposing themselves though certainly at more than 100 yards, having your own supports running back through your formation and then having to half your files with alot of men with pointy sticks running at you would need more 'sang-froid' than most hoplites possessed. You not only have to achieve the formation but it also has to 'set', like a rugby scrum ; one need only watch a game involving the undersized scrum of our antipodean cousins pushing prematurely at a formed but not yet 'set' English scrum (and then being awarded the penalty by a blind South African ref with... I digress). The risk would be magnified in the face of cavalry and the deep formations favoured by the Thebans, quite successfully (dammit) would actually be riskier to execute; it would take eight times as long for the Thebans to reduce to twenty-five ranks as a 'standard' phalanx to go to four and it brings the wrong men to the front. At Leuctra the Sacred Band formed the cutting edge of the Theban 'embolon' ; now, it could be that they halved their files and charged and then their rear-support finished doubling and charged into their rear but that would make for a strange tactic although the Theban attack does seem to grow in strength I would rather interpret that as the presure from the rear buiding gradually in the othismos rather than a sudden rush from the rear that would disorder the Sacred Band.
Flicking through Xenophon's 'Hellenica' I find no instances of light troops actually fighting in front of the phalanx; they appear harassing marches but not the approach of the enemy hoplites so I wonder whether that is just modern interpretation rather than ancient practice. Indeed during the assault on the Piraeus rebels II 4? the light troops are behind the hoplites the oligarchs fifty shields deep; if this is at double spacing then why aren't the lights out front instead of where as Theramenes observes they are useless?
That anomalies may still exist I don't doubt for instance Thucydides' Spartans on a frontage of four! Though it is admitted that he is confused somewhere.
If you have a reference for a detailed map of Nemea that would be good to look at as Xenophon does give numbers and a depth for the coalition, sixteen, but the Boeotians went 'much deeper', etc. but without a picture of the terrain it is pretty pointless. this cannot have been a featureless plain as the Allied approach was a surprise, did the Spartans not believe in vedettes? And the Spartans managed to catch the victorious allies unawares and in the flank.
Maybe if we restrict ourselves to a proper look at one instance things will seem less antagonistic.
The Macedonians will have to wait a bit.
