The Makedonian phalanx -- why such depth?

[Paullus Scipio]

Michael/Paralus wrote:

We will have to agree to disagree on your categorical assumption that the Macedonian phalanx always delivered its charge eight deep.

...I don't make any such categorical assumption at all, and for example, if you read my article on the battle of Sellasia in "Ancient Warfare", you will see that I believe the Macedonian phalanx initially formed up with it's two component units one behind the other, 32 deep, then finally 16 deep in 'Epallelos'( interlocked phalanx)/ locked shields at 1 cubit/18 inches or so per man..... which is pretty certain because of the physical constraints of the saddle on which this combat took place. However the manuals do tell us that fighting was carried out in 'close order' at 3 ft/2 cubits per man generally.

I have not assumed that Polybios is referring to eleven rather I make the deduction based on the plain fact of his statement “From this we can easily conceive what is the nature and force of a charge by the whole phalanx when it is sixteen deep”. There is no need to suppose he means eight at all. Should he have he might have stated so or added: “after it has closed up”. He clearly indicates the charge here is by a “whole phalanx when sixteen deep”.

I'm afraid he does no such thing...as I pointed out in my previous post, in this passage Polybius doesn't say, indeed no author says, that the Macedonians actually fought 16 deep. There would be no need to add "after it has closed up" because it is clear from the the previous paragraph that he is talking about a 'close order' phalanx, and if my hypothesis is correct then his readers would know that a 16 deep phalanx in 'normal'/open order with the men 6 feet apart ( as Polybius categorically states) would close up to 8 deep to fight.

To go back to 357/6 and Philip’s battle against the Illyrians. The term for the Macedonian file was “dekad” and the phalanx made up of “dekades”. The clear implication is that it was originally ten men. Did Philip then, when marching on Bardyllis, go from “open order” ten deep to “closed up” five deep?

I would say "Yes" ! As I have mentioned, Xenophon refers to 4 deep as Hoplite 'battle formation', and I believe this battle , fought when Philip was so young and newly to the throne, was before his 'reforms' introducing the sarissa and that the macedonians fought, like their Illyrian enemies with longche and pelta.

I must point out that this is only one of several pieces of evidence that led me to believe that the hypothesis of thinking that when Greek authors referred to depth, it is with the troops in normal/open order and that all knew the formation closed up prior to fighting.

No, that is plainly wrong as Arrian is clearly speaking of horsemen:

Quote:As Alexander advanced, he found that the ground spread out a little in breadth, and he accordingly brought up his horsemen, both those called Companions, and the Thessalians as well as the Macedonians, and posted them with himself on the right wing. The Peloponnesians and the rest of the allied force of Greeks he sent to Parmenio on the left...

If he means infantry, as you infer, then Parmenio himself – until Alexander transfers the Thessalians – is the only cavalry on the left. Further, a few lines later, Arrian inconvertibly states these are cavalry:
No, since the word used is 'force' or 'division',(depending on translation) and not the word 'cavalry' as later (see below)the implication, I believe, is that the whole contingent, Horse and foot, is meant. Later, when talking of the impending cavalry battle, greek cavalry are specifically referred to.... put this implication together with other evidence and the idea that the Greeks were nearly all on the left flank ( with some, peltasts most likely, on the right flank), and this becomes a distinct possibility, and certainly a little more likely than that Alexander, badly outnumbered, left out of battle altogether one third of his Heavy Infantry, and to cover his front thinned his phalanx to a 'half depth' of 8 in close order ( assuming for a moment that your postulated 16 is normal) but we have been over this previously.....

Quote:Meantime when Alexander perceived that nearly all the Persian cavalry had changed their ground and gone to his left towards the sea, and that on his side only the Peloponnesians and the rest of the Grecian cavalry were posted there, he sent the Thessalian cavalry thither with speed...

At all events, I believe we have exhausted all the evidence regarding Polybius/Callisthenes, and it cannot be denied that at Issus at least, Alexander's Phalanx fought 8 deep in close order.

I'm off to the Sunshine Coast for four days as of now to beachcomb etc!