Roman battlefield found deep inside Germany

[Simplex]

Mar,
...thanks .....
...now If we still had "Laudes " ..... :wink: (sigh ..........!)
Pictures do speak louder than words.
(Ridley Scott woulda be proud of his disciples from German TV, wouldn't he ?? --- ahh were these the same
"roman legionaries" they used in their feature about the "Varusschlacht" -- just moving the opposite direction :wink: ?)

Greez

Simplex

[Simplex]

Update:
[url:2yvwqost]http://www.welt.de/die-welt/article3728941/Was-vom-Kampf-uebrig-blieb.html[/url] (in German)
Briefest possible summary (?) :
2 km x 0,7 km large, now more than 900 finds, an "reinforced" excavation campaign (pollen analysis, earth colouration and traces) in June.
"No single Denar younger than 270 AD" (They're kiddin' here ?!)
"Nearly every morning a new hypothesis" (So excavation-technician Thorsten Schwarz and prospectionist-in-charge Michael Brangs.)
You folks try to amuse me ?! :roll:

Greez

Simplex

[Robert Vermaat]

No single Denar younger than 270 AD"

Haha! It won't be long before it will be a fourth-century battlefield!!

[ghandi]

I havn´t noticed, if someone already posted the official link of the project:

[url:3535k3mc]http://www.archaeologieportal.niedersachsen.de/harzhorn/index.html[/url]

Anyway there is short documentary film at this link:

[url:3535k3mc]http://www.archaeologieportal.niedersachsen.de/harzhorn/download.html[/url]


Apologies, if this not new to you all.


cheers

ghandi

[Julianus]

Update:
...
["No single Denar younger than 270 AD" (They're kiddin' here ?!)
"Nearly every morning a new hypothesis" (So excavation-technician Thorsten Schwarz and prospectionist-in-charge Michael Brangs.)
You folks try to amuse me ?! :roll:

Ooops ... I'm a little bit surprised too about article's quality ..
the author belongs to the more serious journalists regarding historic and archaeologic matters
but when he writes down those lines he must have had obviously a very bad day
( typos, misinterpretations, false informations) ...

A very experienced numismatic as Berger (Univ. Frankfurt/M) is dating the battle between 230 - 235 AD
after checking the new found coins.
The coins are well preserved, details like hair, beard etc. are clearly visible.

I would say literary sources and archaeological evidence point to Maximinus Thrax and the year 235 AD.
And the successful Roman infantry attack on the hill is very probably only part of a battle for the old military passage.

julianus :wink:

[Simplex]

....update ?
According to this :
[url:2ujqwl52]http://www.hna.de/breakingnews/00_20090616073400_Grosse_Grabung_auf_Roemer_Schlachtfeld_geplant.html[/url]
1. There will be an excavation "on a greater scale" by the FU (Freie Universität= Free University) Berlin by the onset of July
2. More finds have been made, but Dr. Petra Lönne prefers to keep details in secrecy.

Greez

Simplex

[D B Campbell]

Link not working for me, Siggi. Can you check, please?

[Simplex]

Ooops, ....my excuses, (after 24 hours ?) they seemed to have shifted it :
[url:18svxcbi]http://www.hna.de/northeimstart/00_20090616073400_Grosse_Grabung_auf_Roemer_Schlachtfeld_geplant.html[/url]
I think this should do.

Greez

Simplex

[D B Campbell]

[url:woq66r1j]http://www.hna.de/northeimstart/00_20090616073400_Grosse_Grabung_auf_Roemer_Schlachtfeld_geplant.html[/url]

Thanks, Siggi. My searching skills let me down. :oops:

btw I see the official site has an antique wooden catapult set up in the woods, perhaps to frighten and disorientate the Germans who were used to seeing the metal-framed machines. :roll: :wink:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Wow, it's in amazing condition after all these years......perhaps it was actually a 1st Cent battle after all.
How can the evidence be disputed? There it is it technicolour!!!! :o o wink:

[marka]

a few third century roman emperors campaigned deep in germany,with the roman fleet getting involved on one occcasion (according to litterary evidence).
coin evidence might not be very useful for dating here as legionaries would have tended to hoard the older,purer and more valuable coins.

[Gluteus Maximus]

coin evidence might not be very useful for dating here as legionaries would have tended to hoard the older,purer and more valuable coins.

They would - but then, the coin evidence remains quite interesting, because that coin of Commodus looks very worn! Just a point about the lack of Germanic weapons, and the possibility this might have been a battle largely - or mainly - involving Germans. Maybe at this point in history Germans did not need to make weapons? I mean, the Rhine and Danube frontiers hemmed them in on two sides. Why bother with making the stuff yourself when you can trade items and buy weapons ready made, and to good Roman standards? Were the Fabricae that well organised by the state that they would be picky about who they supplied stuff too?

[Simplex]

...this raises a few questios as far as I'm concerned.
1. Did they have a sort of weapons-embargo then ? And was the limes as it was then more or less a means to control this, -- or simpler spoken: was one of the tasks of the Obergermanisch-Rätische Limes to control the flow of weapons to the outside of the imperium ?
(The property of germanic veterans that served with the romans and returned to their homesteads after retirement nonwithstanding)
2. Did the germanic tribes need the "classical repertoire" of (then) modern warfare ( spatha, shields with iron bosses, chainmail or similar,javelins, lances) or could they "make do" with something simpler like wooden clubs with/without iron/steel spikes.
In the latter case I think it would be hard to prove that they used them for their "low-profile" in the use of iron/steel.
Maybe the widespread use of such "non-ferous" or "minimal-ferous" devices would explain the low number of finds that can be clearly adressed as "germanic weapons" ?

Greez

Simplex

[marka]

coin evidence might not be very useful for dating here as legionaries would have tended to hoard the older,purer and more valuable coins.

They would - but then, the coin evidence remains quite interesting, because that coin of Commodus looks very worn! Just a point about the lack of Germanic weapons, and the possibility this might have been a battle largely - or mainly - involving Germans. Maybe at this point in history Germans did not need to make weapons? I mean, the Rhine and Danube frontiers hemmed them in on two sides. Why bother with making the stuff yourself when you can trade items and buy weapons ready made, and to good Roman standards? Were the Fabricae that well organised by the state that they would be picky about who they supplied stuff too?

you make a good point.
a lot of 'germanic' weapons do look very similar to roman ones the frankish angon for instance

[Robert Vermaat]

1. Did they have a sort of weapons-embargo then ? And was the limes as it was then more or less a means to control this, -- or simpler spoken: was one of the tasks of the Obergermanisch-Rätische Limes to control the flow of weapons to the outside of the imperium ?
(The property of germanic veterans that served with the romans and returned to their homesteads after retirement nonwithstanding)

Yes, the Romans laws are clearly intending to prohibit the flow of arms to the barbarians. And the Danish bog finds shows how valued those arms were.

2. Did the germanic tribes need the "classical repertoire" of (then) modern warfare ( spatha, shields with iron bosses, chainmail or similar,javelins, lances) or could they "make do" with something simpler like wooden clubs with/without iron/steel spikes.
In the latter case I think it would be hard to prove that they used them for their "low-profile" in the use of iron/steel.
Maybe the widespread use of such "non-ferous" or "minimal-ferous" devices would explain the low number of finds that can be clearly adressed as "germanic weapons?

I'm not sure that's what they were using, but it seems that those weapons were considered 'the things to bring'for battle. Clubs with spikes may nog do so well against lances and armour. I only know of Sassanid cavalry being unhorsed by 'Palestinian clubmen' (but where did I read that? I forgot).