Making a Corinthian Helm?

[Tarbicus]

:?: Another question... How close in appearance to the final helmet would the cast version be, before any hammering? what would you put the helmet on to hammer it........ :?:

Is there any sign that any greaves or muscle cuirasses could have been cast?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

That was on my mind too Jim!

[caiusbeerquitius]

Question...is cast bronze brittle in the same way some cast iron is?
Or, can you work cast iron in the same way as cast bronze........

No. You can not bend the bronze much without heating, but if I understand you correctly, it´s not as brittle as the cast iron you mean.

In cast Bronze, like in heated bronze the molecules are in a sort of chaotic disarray. If you hammer it, the molecules get aligned and form very quickly a coherent structure. Hammering bronze into shape is much more work than with brass or iron, siince you have to heat it much more often. (simply put)

An other clue for the question might also be the colour of the metal. Casting Bronze is rather yellowish compared to the more reddish Forging Bronze, and we know from several metal deposits where the different alloys were carefully seperated (Kempten /Cambodunum, e.g.), that the ancients were quite capable of seeing the different qualities of the different bronze alloys. So if one had a helmet made from a "casting alloy" (that would be an alloy better suited for casting, but not exclusive) it would IMO be probable that the helmet actually was cast.
That would e.g. be the difference between CuSn4-8 for forging and CuSn10-14 for casting. The materials behave quite differently and are easily distinguishable by colour in their extremes (a CuSn8 is not so easily distinguished from a CuSn10 alloy, of course)

Another question... How close in appearance to the final helmet would the cast version be, before any hammering? what would you put the helmet on to hammer it........

1. recognizeable similar
2. Stefan would use wood. In one of Junkelmann´s books there is also a method with a wooden core, over which a helmet is put, and the "gap" is filled with repousse kit. Maybe even stone?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

The FAQ in the manning imperial says:

Helmets can be raised from a single piece of metal if that level of accuracy is required. This does however increase the cost dramatically.

this is about their helmets in general though, not specifically about corinthians.
Lonely Mountain Forge raise their corinthians,too, with the thicker nose like the originals.
Khaire
Giannis

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I would definately put a Manning at the top of my shopping list......When I take the plunge and go for one.

[caiusbeerquitius]

The FAQ in the manning imperial says:
Quote:
Helmets can be raised from a single piece of metal if that level of accuracy is required. This does however increase the cost dramatically.

this is about their helmets in general though, not specifically about corinthians.
Lonely Mountain Forge raise their corinthians,too, with the thicker nose like the originals.
Khaire
Giannis

And how does this relate to what I wrote above?

If you look carefully at the lonely mountain forge Corinthian you might find some discrepancies to the originals. The nose isn´t thicker, it´s just the edges are folded at 90°. Also the lower part of the cheek pieces are braised on. These are quite a way from the Originals.

The Manning helmets are super close, however I actually cannot see whether they have all different thicknesses or not. Maybe one could ask?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I asked a few years back, and the answer was yes! :wink:

[caiusbeerquitius]

www.manningimperial.com/item.php?item_id=449&g_id=3&c_id=56
This helmet nonetheless seems to be made of several parts, rather unlike it´s original.

I think I can see a horizontal welding line over the nasal as well as a vertical one the back in the middle of the neck part.

This is the only helmet I found there which says it has the 6mm nasal.

Whatever. I think I explained my theory. Maybe someone can find an argument that prooves that the Corinthians were not made as I proposed? [/quote]

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well, unless they are liers, I asked them specifiaccly if the nasals were made correctly, and if the helmets were of authentic construction, to which the response was Yes Christain....... I don't think they are welded.
That is what I was trying to get away from....but then looking in the pic you posted...... :roll: :lol: :?:

[caiusbeerquitius]

I am not saying that those MUST be welding lines, I just say that they look like welding lines to me. I may be wrong, and those are just small dents left from the hammering process.
However, I would like to know how one wants to make the thick Nasal if one starts out making the helmet with sheet metal.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Yes, I have to admit i have seen these marks before and convinced myself it was a reflection.... :roll: I trust people too easily..... :oops: :x

" However, I would like to know how one wants to make the thick Nasal if one starts out making the helmet with sheet metal"
I have always wondered about that too, imagining the god like ability and skill required to correctly hammer out a helmet from an obviously thick piece, to gain the helmet and leave the nasal still that thickness.... :?: hock: :?:

[Matthew Amt]

A few years ago I was looking at a Corinthian (much like that Manning piece pictured above) in the University of Pennsylvania Museum, and noted that the edge around one eyehole and the nasal was clearly turned back and not cast to that thickness because it was COMING OFF. It was separating right along the angle, though I could not tell if this was due to stress/corrosion/etc., or if that turned-back strip was a separate applied strip. It was clearly NOT a thicker cast area!

Sure, Manning's helmet looks like it was welded, but as I understand it he says he CAN do one in one piece for a lot more money. His work, and that of Lonely Mountain Forge (Joe Piela), shows very clearly to me that ancient armorers would have been perfectly capable of raising helmets like these from sheet, or at least from plate-like cast billets.

Oh, Piela had to braze the ends of the cheekpieces onto that helmet because the piece of metal that my friend sent to him wasn't quite big enough for the whole thing to fit. The actual order was for a helmet welded from several pieces, but Joe decided to try it in one piece just to see if he could do it. And he didn't charge my friend any extra!

As for alloys being a means of determining cast versus forged, there are numerous Bronze Age shields forged from single sheets of bronze, hammered out quite thin, and their tin content is often 14 or 15 percent. I believe that applies to numerous bronze buckets and cauldrons, too.

About the color, doesn't that depend a lot on the circumstances of the piece's preservation? Wouldn't soil acidity and conservation methods make a big difference? I'm seriously curious about this, but have heard a lot of conflicting information. The actual color of the metal really only comes through if you polish it--which isn't going to happen to a museum piece.

My own Corinthian (also by Piela) was forged from bronze sheet no more than a millimeter thick, probably less because a lot of scratches had to be sanded off (ah, cheap scrap metal!). It weighs 5 pounds. I have yet to see statistics for ANY Corinthian helmet weighing more than 4 pounds, and most are about 3 or even less. So we're talking half a millimeter thick on average, yes? Is it physically possible to cast a bronze bowl half a millimeter thick? Doesn't sound like it, from what I've heard from folks who have done serious work in ancient casting methods.

http://www.bronze-age-craft.com/

http://1501bc.com/nf_casting_eng.html

- whatever one may say about the difficulty of casting, it makes one wonder why then there are so many other cast objects from antiquity
- If we would have to have gazillions of rests from bronze forms, then where are those for all the montefortinos etc.?

Sure, they cast all kinds of fabulous things! And I'm the last one to underestimate the capabilities of ancient craftsmen, especially considering the things I've seen modern bronze casters do, and things that they've learned. But I've also learned to distrust archeologists--and ESPECIALLY the popular press--who casually refer to a piece of bronze armor as "cast", because all too often it is obvious that they have no idea what they're talking about. So references like those I do not consider to be reliable, and I doubt that others here feel much differently.

I've also seen good information on any number of Montefortino helmets that were obviously hammered or even spun, but still waiting for something conclusive that they were completely cast.

I'll concede the point that we don't find miscast helmets because they would have been recycled. Fair enough! And yes, I'd really like to see more information about bits of casting molds that might have turned up over the years--these would be fired clay, so they should be thick on the ground!

Bottom line, I just haven't seen enough solid data on properly-measured thicknesses, weights, etc., nor detailed photos and analyses of what the INSIDE looks like. From the outside, I'm not seeing anything that can't be done with sheet metal by a skilled craftsman. And it could be done in a LOT less time, with a VASTLY lower rate of failure, than anything like that could be cast. (Not that I think the ancient Greeks cared about doing anything the easy way! The mere existence of the Corinthian helmet proves the opposite...)

I'm willing to be convinced, but I need EVIDENCE.

Khairete,

Matthew

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Manning Imperial say they make the corinthians but two separate pieces. When you make an order,they ask you if you want it made one piece,but as they say in their FAQ, the cost increases. Mat,hasn't your helmet got a thicker nasal? it looks like so. If they hamered a plate out of a thicker cast plate,it's no much wonder how they made so thicker nasals,right?
All the manning corinthians have a thicker nasal. The rest is made of 1.2 mm bronze or brass.
Khairete
Giannis

[Sean Manning]

I remember seeing a stone frame for hammering out Boeoetian helms in a book by Connolley or Sekunda- do we have anything else like this from ancient armourers? Obviously Corinthians are a much more complicated shape, but I personally expect they were hammered out.

[Praefectusclassis]

Haven't seen any for Corinthians, but yeah, there are moulds for other types too.