Famous helmet from a provocator !

[Caivs Molinarivs Blandvs]

Hi all,

as I was search for an example from a provocator helmet, I had found
in GOOGLE some pictures and from all pictures,
THIS example, is the best, I think.

100% authentic, or not ?

What do you think about it ?

Cheers
Caius

[M. Demetrius]

Looks like it might be ok, but it would be easier to say if there were a side view. I think most originals were bronze, though, fewer were steel/brass mixtures, but I'm no expert, and just working from memory.

[Caivs Molinarivs Blandvs]

I think the roman eagle on the the top is a little bit funny,
cause the roman eagle was the heraldic animal from the roman army only and not from gladiators...

Bye
CMB

[Aurelianus]

AFAIK this is a helmet from http://www.niximperial.com . His helmets mostly look quite nice (even the decoration is not very authentic some times) Unfortunately Terry use synthetic material for the decorations. So the helmet is not usable for combat because the decorations are splintering.

.

[Medusa Gladiatrix]

One provocator helmet from the Pompeii finds indeed shows an eagle in the front part, it's named in the Junkelmann book H30. But according to the description that helmet was made out of bronze and the figures (not the eagle alone but also many others) were driven out of the metal and not appliqued to the helmet as it looks in this piece.

Also when browsing thru the Junkelmann I noticed that they put in the spouts on the side of helmets only single goose feathers and not ostrich feathers. These were used for plumes which were attached to the crests of helmets (a provocator helmet does not have a crest though :lol: )

What I wonder is if there were really two colored helmets. Were the figures - even if they were driven out of the metal - covered with gold e.g. when using a metal and not bronze helmet?

To me this helmet looks very Hollywood like. If Aurelianus is true and this helmet comes from niximperial (though I couldn't find it on that site at least not under helmets :? ) it doesn't surprise me that it looks Hollywood-ish because other items there looked also like if they are replicas of Hollywood movies.

[Conal]

What I wonder is if there were really two colored helmets.

I have only seen black and white pictures but some of the Secutor helmets look like they could be a mix of Iron & Bronze?

[Tib. Gabinius]

Caius, you found the picture in our forum, so it would be much easier to ask me instead ofposting here.
It's my helmet. And yes, it is from Terry Nix. I wouldn't get a full blow to it, thats right, the material wouldnt hold it. But its part of an impression, not of a experimental test.

Another mistake is, that he didn't arret the lattice at the eyeholes in anyway.
Also the featherholders are made of wood and brought on with screws, both points i ll have to fix.
Also the colour: i ordered it in "tinned" and get it this way. I m not happy but i can live with it, cause we cant say anything about tinning, gilded or silvered helmet, also we dont know anything about colour (and there isnt any work to that on helmet as far as i know now).
It wasn't uncommen to get colour on thinks like weapons. Who ever has visit the "Bunte Götter" Ausstellung or seen their catalogue should know it.
Till there is a work for it on gladiatorial helmets, it stay a good question.
Anyway, i would prefer single colour to, but can live with it.


The feathers critic of Svenja isn't proved anyway. The founding dosn't show us anything about the type of feathers.
The equestrian shown in the Augster relief wear another kind of feathers than "single goose feathers", so do the feather crest of the thracian and myrmillones show us bundles of regular feathers.
And last but least, the relief of the gladiatorial buildings of pompeji (which, if i remember right is also shown in Junkelmans book) show us "fluffy" feathers instead of single.

And, as every time someone is used as acting like archaelogists, i would like to mention that we don't know the interpretation moment in this sources (one by one) belonging to this details.
I'll look which looks best on the helmet and give the best link to the possible originals and decide it to this.

The decoration itself, also the eagle is quite close to the original, no question.

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Watching that helmet, i have to make some questions...

How are atatched the "cheekpieces" to the helmet?
Why some helmets have the eyeholes with hinges if by his disposition is impossible to open it?
How works the central ridge between the cheekpieces? Is fixed to one and free to the other? Is riveted or hinged to the helmet?

I know there are a lot of questions, but thanks for your answers. If anybody could post some detailed pictures, better, please.

Probably were better that the helmet was made in metal, etc, but many times we have to make some concesions in authenticity. I have made some jewells to a Galla Placidia impression and i can't use authentic pearls, maragdes, and so... :lol:

And respecting the feathers, i agree, all that people use is highly hipothetical, so i think it's more a question of personal election.

[Tib. Gabinius]

I hope i'd understood your questions correct.

In the original they should be riveted or with a kind of hinge, but this helmet is make all out of one piece metal, so also you can't open the face part.
So, what said before, it's a "look for" helmet, not made similar or to use similar as the originals.

As far as i know it would be possible to took out the pin and remove the "eyeprotectors". On the originals, esp. on the lunulae provocator (don't remember the number right now) it isnt possible to open them without this work.
The one my is made after is able to "bend" the holding a bit beside, but nothing show that this was down anytime.

To show how the helmets were to open, i can advice you to take a look on the video to the Junkelmann book, there he show at his reconstructions a bit, how they work (not really detailed, but at least a bit).

[Conal]

To show how the helmets were to open, i can advice you to take a look on the video to the Junkelmann book, there he show at his reconstructions a bit, how they work (not really detailed, but at least a bit).

Video ...what video please?????

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Thanks and laudes for you!

[john m roberts]

It's not quite true that the provocator helmet never had a crest. While most never show a crest, on the Zliten mosaic a pair of provocators are depicted not merely with crests on their helms, but possibly with the largest crests ever depicted on Classical helms. There are always exceptions.

[Conal]

It's not quite true that the provocator helmet never had a crest. While most never show a crest, on the Zliten mosaic a pair of provocators are depicted not merely with crests on their helms, but possibly with the largest crests ever depicted on Classical helms. There are always exceptions.

That helmet rendering, however, does not point to it being exactly the type shown above. It is unlike any that I have seen elsewhere so may be a peculiar North African type?????

[Medusa Gladiatrix]

Tobias,

The feathers critic of Svenja isn't proved anyway. The founding dosn't show us anything about the type of feathers.
The equestrian shown in the Augster relief wear another kind of feathers than "single goose feathers", so do the feather crest of the thracian and myrmillones show us bundles of regular feathers.
And last but least, the relief of the gladiatorial buildings of pompeji (which, if i remember right is also shown in Junkelmans book) show us "fluffy" feathers instead of single.

It helps a lot to read a post carefully before answering. I was referring to the type of helmets with spouts (in German this word means "Tülle") on sides of helmets. I was *NOT* referring to plumes which are on crests of helmets. These were bushy indeed. But your helmet does have things which are supposed to look like the side spouts and not like plumes (Helmbusch) on top of helmets. If you also have a careful look at mosaics and frescoes and reliefs you will surely note that side spouts were decorated with single goose feathers and on top of helmets you find the bushy plumes or horsehair plumes.

A very good online dictionary is http://dict.leo.org/ This is really good and you find even technical terms there and checking there unknown words definitely makes reading and writing much easier.

[Medusa Gladiatrix]

Salve Conal,

To show how the helmets were to open, i can advice you to take a look on the video to the Junkelmann book, there he show at his reconstructions a bit, how they work (not really detailed, but at least a bit).

Video ...what video please?????

Tobias refers to the video "So kämpften Roms Gladiatoren" published by Mnemosyne http://mnemosyne-medien.de/BrotDerRoemer.html It's only in German and quite costly (EUR 35.00) but worth it's money when you are into gladiators. I don't know if they ship abroad though.