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Manufacturing effort, lorica hamata vs. lorica segmentata
#1
I'd be interested to hear the opinions which one was actually easier to make ?
Was the transition to l. segmentata only because of superior protection or were there manufacturing issues involved ?

And since mail armour seemed to remain in use, what that because of other type was more expensive ? Or harder to make ? Or just because no military likes to throw away old but still useful equipment ?

Regards,

Mika
(Mika S.)

"Odi et amo. Quare id faciam, fortasse requiris? Nescio, sed fieri sentio et excrucior." - Catullus -

"Nemo enim fere saltat sobrius, nisi forte insanit."

"Audendo magnus tegitur timor." -Lucanus-
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#2
As this has been discussed earlier on this forum, this link might be interesting:

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... anufacture

Cheers,

Martijn
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#3
There are a couple other threads on this topic!

http://www.romanarmy.nl/rat/viewtopic.php?t=14788

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=10293

http://www.romanarmy.nl/rat/viewtopic.php?t=12516

http://www.romanarmy.nl/rat/viewtopic.php?t=1528

The first one is probably the best--huh, only 4 pages long, I thought it was longer than that! It references the second link. Read through all that, then come on back if you still have questions. Mind you, there might not BE firm answers for them!

Vale,

Matthew
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
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#4
Well...maybe whole issue is bit academic... 8) Interesting links, but not really dealing with my issue.

Lorica Segmentata offers superior protection vs. hamata (at least against blunt trauma) but it covers mostly only your torso. And since legionaries fought in closed formation behind large shields, body armour is only secondary in defensive protection. Thus it might be concievable that mail was also popular because it covered more area. From behind scutum, legionary's vulnerable areas were head (protected by helmet) and sword arm.

I don't quite buy the arguments that hamata would be easier to maintain and repair... Especially against rust etc. So that compared to giving superior protection to body cavity area (does not take too deep penetrating strike in that area to kill you), it might been the reason to move to lorica segmentata.
Legionary fighting in "shield-wall" is not going to get stabbed to groin that often.

I personally think that decision to use lorica segmentata was both financial and manufacture. Thus I would have to like input or links/books about it from people who have actually tried to make them.

regards,

Mika
(Mika S.)

"Odi et amo. Quare id faciam, fortasse requiris? Nescio, sed fieri sentio et excrucior." - Catullus -

"Nemo enim fere saltat sobrius, nisi forte insanit."

"Audendo magnus tegitur timor." -Lucanus-
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#5
Although another period (that of the English longbow in the late Middle Ages), this article studies the effect of different kinds of arrows on various types of armour. It illustrates results on mail (butted, riveted medium quality, and riveted high quality) and plate (coat of plates, and plate armour). The article also gives some references to other studies of the protective value of different kinds of armour. This might give you a starting point.

Cheers,

Martijn

Link:
http://www.currentmiddleages.org/artsci ... esting.pdf
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#6
Quote:I personally think that decision to use lorica segmentata was both financial and manufacture. Thus I would have to like input or links/books about it from people who have actually tried to make them.
no point doing this unless you do it the same way the ancients did and we don't know the kind of mass production techniques the Romans might have employed. Until we know this your questions cannot be answered.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#7
Quote:Although another period (that of the English longbow in the late Middle Ages), this article studies the effect of different kinds of arrows on various types of armour. It illustrates results on mail (butted, riveted medium quality, and riveted high quality) and plate (coat of plates, and plate armour). The article also gives some references to other studies of the protective value of different kinds of armour. This might give you a starting point.

Cheers,

Martijn

Link:
http://www.currentmiddleages.org/artsci ... esting.pdf

I had a read through this and there are too many problems to draw any useful conclusions. The first and main problem is that the bow he uses is too weak. The most recent research suggests that a typical English warbow was closer to 150 lbs. 110 lbs would be the lowest end of the spectrum. The heavier bows use different arrows to the ones he tested so extrapolating on the range to guess the impact of a heavier bow cannot be done.

He doesn't mention the hardness of the arrowheads in these tests. I'm guessing that they are all much harder than any archaeological example that has so far been analysed.

None of his targets resemble that worn by a medieval warrior. The jack is flawed because he didn't bother to quilt the layers of linen properly. Vertical rows of stitching spaced an inch or so apart will greatly increase its resistance to arrow points.

The mail tests were no good. He didn't test "average mail" and "high quality mail". He tested "crappy mail" and "not so crappy mail". Riveted does not equal historical. Unless someone like Erik Schmid makes the mail using correct tools and manufacturing methods these tests are a waste of time.

The plate thickness in the coat of plates was not specified. Neither was the metallurgical composition of the plate. I'm guessing that neither has much in common with historical examples.

The plate test was also flawed. I won't explain here why but a far better test was recently published by the Royal Armouries.
"A report of the findings of the Defence Academy warbow trials Part 1 Summer 2005." By Paul Bourke and David Whetham. pp.53-82.
My take on it can be found here.
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=79261

The only thing I would agree with the author is that the Type 16 compact broadhead was most likely the armour piercer the English used. Not any sort of bodkin. One should note that the only typology that shows any evidence of being hardened was the type 16. All bodkin typologies so far examined turned out to be unhardened wrought iron. IMO, after a great deal of research and experimentation the bodkin's primary purpose was to increase range, not to punch through armour.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#8
Dan,

Thank you for your input. I am aware of the difficulties with this kind of testing (including too many variables and too little information for making a good replica). That is why I called it a good starting point.

If I am not mistaking Silvia Leever at the University of Delft is one of the few (or maybe the only person) that did these kind of tests on actual historical armour (if I remember correctly it concerns ammunition armour from the 17th century).

Greetings,

Martijn
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#9
you don't need to test museum pieces. It is perfectly possible to make decent reconstructions that are metallurgically correct. The problem is that none of these back-yarders bother to do it. For example, the RA test I cited used modern charcoal-rolled iron. According to Williams this is a decent approximation of medieval munitions plate.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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