Quote:Which might explain why they seem to mostly be found either on the frontier with a Germanic tribe, or near one of the fabricae.
Don't jump to conclusions from the distribution map alone. As Mike Bishop rightly remarks, distribution maps only show where some items were found, not where they all are. Much of this pattern can be explained by plumbatae not being recognised as such (they are often classified as javelin heads) or by archaeology not being of the same standard. Not only are there far more plumbatae to be expected from the Balkan (even more than so far), but also from France and Germany. And I don't believe for one second that the eastern Empire did not use them in Syria.
Robert Vermaat MODERATOR FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
I don't have a problem with infantry. My comment is purely related to the fact an assumption is being made that cavalry are attacking at close contact which, I thought, was sufficiently "de-bunked" elsewhere.
I also sure plumbatae would have a deastating effect against anything unarmoured, so I think really, we are agreeing.
May I ask where the references to plumbatae being launched in a "cloud" comes from? Is it a very late source or more contemporary to the weapon usage itself?
Moi Watson
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
Gesith post=333044 Wrote:Which might explain why they seem to mostly be found either on the frontier with a Germanic tribe, or near one of the fabricae.
Don't jump to conclusions from the distribution map alone. As Mike Bishop rightly remarks, distribution maps only show where some items were found, not where they all are. Much of this pattern can be explained by plumbatae not being recognised as such (they are often classified as javelin heads) or by archaeology not being of the same standard. Not only are there far more plumbatae to be expected from the Balkan (even more than so far), but also from France and Germany. And I don't believe for one second that the eastern Empire did not use them in Syria.
Of course, it's nothing conclusive, simply a quick theory/thought, hence the word "maybe". Hopefully more digging can be done in the Eastern provinces and in North Africa, and more clear finds can be found.
My understanding is that it is now pretty much accepted that plumbatae (sp???--my latin declensions fail me), were thrown with an overhand motion. My question is whether anyone knows if soldiers threw them like a javelin with a closed fist, or did they use some other technique?
Hmm...I'm more of the lobbed or "mortar" school of thought, personally. Lofted, high trajectory makes more use of the lead weight and penetration of armour I would have thought.
Moi Watson
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
Quote: I don't have a problem with infantry. My comment is purely related to the fact an assumption is being made that cavalry are attacking at close contact which, I thought, was sufficiently "de-bunked" elsewhere.
No need for debunking here. Cavalry shooting arrows are probably out of range of plumbatae, assuming they not close the distance furthur. cavalry throwing with javelins are within plumbata range however, which is attested by Vegetius.
Of course cavarly closing even further (and I assuming that they do so with speed, as any formation does which attempts to limit the time in which they are in range of any distance weapons) to use lance, sword or mace, will be even more in range of plumbatae thrown at them.
Quote:I also sure plumbatae would have a deastating effect against anything unarmoured, so I think really, we are agreeing.
We are. :-)
Quote:May I ask where the references to plumbatae being launched in a "cloud" comes from? Is it a very late source or more contemporary to the weapon usage itself?
None as far as I know. This is based on a kindo of 'rule of thumb', where the projectile is compared to arrows, javelins and pila - delivery in one shot/throw seems more effective than fire at will. Which, I hasten to say, would of course not be forbidden. But when you are attacked by a group of men (infantry or cavalry), to me it seemed the most effective to deliver a 'cloud' of projectiles. Hence my description. I don't know of any, but we think of pila as being thrown by rank, I think?
Robert Vermaat MODERATOR FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Quote:My understanding is that it is now pretty much accepted that plumbatae (sp???--my latin declensions fail me), were thrown with an overhand motion. My question is whether anyone knows if soldiers threw them like a javelin with a closed fist, or did they use some other technique?
Quote:Hmm...I'm more of the lobbed or "mortar" school of thought, personally. Lofted, high trajectory makes more use of the lead weight and penetration of armour I would have thought.
Plumbatae can be thrown both overarm as well as underarm. Modern testing has resulted in longer distances of underarm throws. Overarm throws result in a flatter trajectory, but at shorter distances the plumbata hits with more speed = impact. This impact can be matched by an underarm throw when the plumbata falls from a higher distance.
Current thinking is that underarm throws are used for targets both further away and protectd from the front, while the overarm technique would fit a target better which is at close range.
Speculative reasoning based on modern testing of course.
Robert Vermaat MODERATOR FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Hristov, Michail (2012): a Late Roman “plumbata” from “Tzary Maly Grad”near Belchin village, Samokov region, in: Ongal, yearbook of the Association for Anthropology, Ethnology and Folklore Studies vol. 10/2012, pp. 358-366. http://www.spisanie.ongal.net/broi5/10Hristov_M%201.pdf
30 from Serbia
28 from Britain
15 from Austria
14 from Slovenia
12 from France
9 from Hungary
8 from Croatia
8 from Italy
7 from Switzerland
5 from Germany
5 from Georgia/Abchasia 3 from Bulgaria (up from 2)
3 from Greece (possibly BC)
2 from Liechtenstein
2 from The Netherlands
2 from Rumania
1 from Belgium
1 from Slovakia
48 from doubtful or unprovenanced origins
Robert Vermaat MODERATOR FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
A shame I can't read Bulgarian! There's always google translate in extremis, however.
Moi Watson
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
Quote:All around Britannia, archaeologists toil through the night to find 3 more plumbatae so we can top the table again!!!!! :lol:
Seriously Nick, I fear that Britain has forever lost that nr. 1 position. The state of archaeology in Britain is far better than that of Serbia, so even though I don’t think the ‘last British plumbata’ has already been found, I doubt that many more will turn up. On the other hand in the Balkan they seem to drop out of every heap of dirt. I dare say that Serbia will easily pass the 50 mark over the next decade, followed by Croatia and Slovenia.
Robert Vermaat MODERATOR FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Joh Emery (2010): Experimenting with plumbatae and observations on their behavior
"This study looked at the behavior of the plumbata, a unique Roman throwing weapon. This was done through the replication of weapon heads, shafts, and flights based off of previous research and through the incorporation of historical pictorial representations. The objective of this study was to include the important element of time and practices that had not previously been accounted for in earlier studies. This study also looked at near exact replication of the weapons based solely from the pictorial representations of historical manuscripts. This had been mentioned by previous researchers but had never been carried out. Basic results were that the weapon does indeed improve in range and consistency of behavior in flight providing increasing smooth flights and a max range of over 200 ft. The result of the picture based weapons was that they did not perform nearly to the ability of the non-pictorial based weapons. "
Robert Vermaat MODERATOR FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)