Lorica Musculata made of Metal or leather?

[Robert]

It's a cuisse, a tightguard. This object has been a subject of discussion in previous threads on leather armour. Nothing new, I'm afraid .....

[Dan Howard]

We already knew that armour had been made from leather scale since the Bronze Age. It is irrelevant to whether musculata was ever made from leather.

[Vitruvius]

I absolutely agree with Dan on this one. No connection at all. I wonder what the carving of Balbus on the casket was supposed to represent? It looks like a Squamata cut to look like a musculata.
Dan, do you know anything about that carving?
Salve, Fraters,

Vitruvius.....aka Larry Mager

[Dan Howard]

I don't think it matters because it isn't possible to tell from a carving whether the item being depicted is made of metal or leather. IMO iconographical evidence is not a valid avenue of study for this subject. You need to look for archaeological remains and primary documents. Once those are used to confirm the existence of a particular item then iconographical evidence can be used to give us an idea of how it might have been put together.

[Vitruvius]

Ave, Dan,
Good Points!!!!! IF I were to do Balbus' armor based on the casket, I'd play it safe and go for metal plumata, possibly, or squamata, definitely, since we know from source material that Chain and squamata was in use even more so by then.
Gotta run,
Salvete Fraters,
Vitruvius......Larry Mager

[ValentinianVictrix]

I disagree entirely, if we know that scale armour was made from non-metalic materials then it does beg the question why not full muscle cuirasses made from textiles or leather?

The real issue should surely be why no cuirasses of any type from the Late Roman period have turned up despite the copious art work depicting it.

[Dan Howard]

We have around three thousand years of leather scale and lamellar being used by various cultures. How many of them also made armour from large solid pieces of shaped leather? I can't think of any. We have some of those cultures also making armour from solid metal plate so why did they not make them from leather also? Probably for the same reason that the Romans didn't.

[Robert Vermaat]

The real issue should surely be why no cuirasses of any type from the Late Roman period have turned up despite the copious art work depicting it.

Same reason why other items from the period are rarely found - they may not have been is common use. Helmets seem to be found more often, but that may have been due to the precious metal, which made them object to preserve or bury as a hoards (same as coins). I think they were reused until spent, and then scrapped for metal?

[caiusbeerquitius]

The real issue should surely be why no cuirasses of any type from the Late Roman period have turned up despite the copious art work depicting it.

Maybe because it was en vogue to show them in art, but they were actually not worn?

[Vitruvius]

Robert,
My thoughts exactly!!
Salve,
Vitruvius.....aka Larry Mager

[Sardaukar]

Wonder if Romans used cuirboulli (not really an armour expert).

LIke:

http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/A...proved.htm

Might have been useful under hamata and about every other metal armour.

[Dan Howard]

Whenever cuirbouilli was used in Europe or the Middle East it was worn OVER mail, not underneath. The article is right about wax hardening. Cuirbouili was made by using hot water or an oven, not wax. There is nothing to suggest that the Romans ever made armour from cuirbuoilli and it is far from the "perfect armour". Williams tests suggest that hardened leather provides less protection than a similar weight of metal or layered cloth.

[Vitruvius]

Absolutely Dan, Frankly, from idle experimentation, using wax doesn't do anything to help the leather. It is a waste of time for this period.

Salve,
Vitruvius....aka Larry Mager

[Sardaukar]

Was just an idea if they could have used it as subarmalis.

[Vitruvius]

Ave, Mi Frater,
If it were to used as a subarmalis,then yes, use lightweight leather. Most folk I know attach pteruges to the subarmalis, shoulder and waist.
If you want to use "tongue" pteruges, make a belt of them to go over the top of the subarmalis and its waist pteruges. In such a case, I would recommend 2 things: Make the Pteruges separate from the subarmalis and ; make the leather subarmalis as a separate cover for a lightly padded and quilted underlayer, because, if you haven't worn much armor before, let me tell you....after a while, you stinketh, and making the outer cover removable helps keep the leather stinkless and the underside washable. Hope that helps.
Salvete,
Vitruvius....aka Larry Mager