Leather helmet and armour covers

[Tarbicus]

If a primary source specifically says that leather helmet and armour covers were used, then it's surely a valid item to experiment with and accept as being more probable than improbable? The source has also added detail to the process of wearing them, where they are usually removed before battle, so the comment seems far too specific and purposeful to be discounted. What we don't know is what they looked like, but, as Ade points out, it would explain certain details on sculptural representation. Even though I don't put much stock in the details of such propaganda representations in terms of their form and minutiae, I don't have a problem with the function of the kit represented (armour is armour, helmet is helmet, shield is shield, but 2nd C. helmet is probably not Attic, if you catch my drift). When the primary source mentions the armour covers, and then we have funerary portraits (which are IMHO a zillion times more reliable) showing material covers worn over hamata, then that reinforces the validity of any suggested reconstruction, provided the experimental cover reflects that form on the stele.

[Caballo]

Coming back to the helmet cover issue, can I add the Batavian penchant for covering helmets with hair/ fur/ moss? See http://www.romanarmy.net/batavianhelm.htm

Two possible hair/ moss coverings survive- one from Newstead and one from Vindolanda. It also would give the owner a particularly fearsome look- and as an added benefit the Vindolanda moss used apparently keeps the midges away!

[Gaius_Calvus]

I have to go with Jim here:

If a primary source specifically says that leather helmet and armour covers were used, then it's surely a valid item to experiment with and accept as being more probable than improbable?

Not only do I agree completely, but would also recommend that there was probably more than one design/method/leather used to cover the armor and helmets -- that to state that we have to find an example and then that this single example (assuming we find one) is the only way to cover a helmet with leather would be to assume a greater degree of standardization than I believe possible. I just don't believe (nor do scholars support) the idea that a central factory somewhere was cranking these out to a standard design in quantity.

So, if it covers the helmet and works from a practical standpoint, then what is the harm in in producing/experimenting with a design it as long as the materials and methods would have been reasonably available?

Regards,

Edge

[Marcus Mummius]

I have to go with Jim here:

If a primary source specifically says that leather helmet and armour covers were used, then it's surely a valid item to experiment with and accept as being more probable than improbable?

Not only do I agree completely, but would also recommend that there was probably more than one design/method/leather used to cover the armor and helmets -- that to state that we have to find an example and then that this single example (assuming we find one) is the only way to cover a helmet with leather would be to assume a greater degree of standardization than I believe possible. I just don't believe (nor do scholars support) the idea that a central factory somewhere was cranking these out to a standard design in quantity.

So, if it covers the helmet and works from a practical standpoint, then what is the harm in in producing/experimenting with a design it as long as the materials and methods would have been reasonably available?

Regards,

Edge

That's exactly what I was thinking:-). It's a bit like the carrying harness of the scutum... But I don't know if we have any written evidence for such a rig...

[Primvs Pavlvs]

Thanks guys in my view your arguments are backing up my statement that most of what we do is speculation.

[Caballo]

It might be worth looking at how other pre-modern armies approached the same issue.

For example here is how the German army of a hundred years ago covered a tchapska
http://www.derrittmeister.com/productpages/04322.htm
A pickelhaube
http://www.derrittmeister.com/productpages/04336.htm
And another pickelhaube
http://www.derrittmeister.com/productpages/04335.htm

All quite easy to replicate!

And all in canvas, which suprised me- I would have thought that oiled leather would have made more sense. IIRC, were helmet covers also used on campaign in the Napoleonic wars?

Cheers

Caballo

[Gaius_Calvus]

Caballo,

Helmet and Shako covers were used during the Napoleonic wars.

Regards,

Edge

[Primvs Pavlvs]

Caballo,


Most of the helmets you have posted were made from leather themselves. The covers were used as camoflague, and to protect the shiney bits in the field.

I have seen some Napoleonic helmet covers that were made from tar impregnated canvas, but never seen a leather one.

[Marcus Mummius]

Can someone perhaps post the passage from both Caesar and Plutarch?

Is it mentioned that the covers are leather or not? Otherwise textile might be an option too :!:

[Magnus]

That's funny, I thought their posts backed up my point. 8)

[Graham Sumner]

Come on dude, I don't need to repeat Sumner's book here do I?

Certainly not! Not only would that be a breach of copyright but I have already had the honour of boring everyone to death with that first!

Most of the helmets you have posted were made from leather themselves. The covers were used as camouflage, and to protect the shiny bits in the field.

Yes, leather , horrible stuff why would they use that when better materials were available. Quite right, the Germans thought of that too and started to replace their leather Pickelhaubes with........................... cardboard ones!

Still much better than the British and French who were wearing cloth caps at the time. The French also thought red trousers were ideal for camouflage or rather that a red colour showed elan, spirit and daring do. Funny colour red.

We know red tunics were worn,

Correct!

but not by whom

, Not correct, read up in RMC 1&2 you must have fallen asleep by then!

or how red the red was or how red the red needed to be

, Quite true. Even the Romans get confused over what colour red is!

or what stuff they used for that red colour

. Not strictly true as we have a good idea of what was available and details are given in RMC 1&2 you must have nodded off again! Easily done and it gets worse as you get older! :wink:

That's speculation for all intents and purposes.

Nothing wrong with a healthy dose of speculation added with a pinch of salt

But they wore red tunics..

I second that! Oh I already have must have nodded off myself!

Matt is of course right about slightness of evidence, but then that, too, can be seen by some as evidence enough to base speculation on (or educated guesswork). And sometimes we just have to, or else we could not do anything.

I agree. Even the well known Facilis Centurio kit from the first century AD, accepted everywhere, is based by and large on interpretation of the sculpture.

I have had a bash at one of the armour covers, speculative poncho style made from neatsfoot treated pigskin. The idea taken form Statuary depictions of what has been considered a Paenula (but has often seemed a little short to my mind).

One of the tombstones shows one of these 'leather covers' if indeed that is what it is, worn underneath a paenula and these cloaks themselves are shown in 'short', 'medium' and 'large', sizes.

Graham.

[Robert Vermaat]

Thanks guys in my view your arguments are backing up my statement that most of what we do is speculation.

That's funny, I thought their posts backed up my point. 8)

Well, that happens sometimes.. I've seen two scientist bickering over the surface of the planet venus, awaiting better data.. When these finally became available, both men claimed the data backed their theory!

I think the point is that Matt is saying that speculation is 'not having evidence', and that Paul and others say that 'textual evidence' is good enough to base reconstructions on, even though that is not the same as hard evidence. And, indeed, that is called speculation.

I think you don't disagree with each other, but you both use different definitions for the word 'speculation'.

[Marcus Mummius]

Can someone perhaps post the latin passages that mention the covers, from both Caesar(De bello Galico) and Plutarch (Lucullus)?

I'm curious to see the original text. The Ancient Warfare brochure only has the text from Plutarch in an English translation...

[Tarbicus]

for instance that thread we had about the name 'lorica hamata', which everybody uses. I was surprised that we could not trace the hard evidence for the name, I always assumed that it was a secure one...

From Plutarch, does anyone know what the Greek text says?

"The greater number of the Hastati wore in front of their breast a brass plate •nine inches square, which was called the Heart-preserver (καρδιοφύλαξ); but those whose fortune exceeded 100,000 asses had complete cuirasses of chain-armour (loricas — ἁλυσιδωτοὺς θώρηκας)."
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... citus.html

[Marcus Mummius]

Yeah, Plutarch's text is in greek of course :oops: