Armour Piercing Pugio?

[Magnus]

I suggest we test it on...a herring.

[AthenaK]

In a battle involving armoured combatants, it seems to me that daggers would not really be slashing and thrusting but more, well, applied to downed or crunched opponents. In any case, I don't really know. Perhaps the pugio was used for more than just combat, and the unusual tip was to aid in some other part of the soldiers routine. :?: :?:

[Magnus]

In japanese armoured combat, and western armoured combat (Fiore), that's one of their main assaults...to come to hand to hand combat, and take your opponent down and put him on his back so you have much more leverage with your dagger.

[Magnus]

Basically what I'm asking, is what were the romans cutting that required extra strength along the blade? What made the Romans say: "We need to make these blades with this".

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I always thought the rib was to stop a dagger sticking in the opponents flesh, as with the grooves?

[Marcus Mummius]

I always thought the rib was to stop a dagger sticking in the opponents flesh, as with the grooves?

The grooves or fullering in a blade are there to make the blade lighter.

I think the midrib is there to make the blade stronger. Perhaps the material of some pugiones was harder (because of it's chemical composition or because of the way it was hardened and tempered) than most sword blades. Very hard iron (or steel) is more likely to snap than softer iron so perhaps that's the reason why they added the midrib.

Making a pugio with or without a midrib is a huge difference in working hours.

Vale

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

That may be an additional bonus, but the actual function of the fullers is to stop a blade sticking! The midrib possibly functions in the same way.
Please enlighten me if this fundemental principal of blade design has been de-bunked!?

[Marcus Mummius]

That may be an additional bonus, but the actual function of the fullers is to stop a blade sticking! The midrib possibly functions in the same way.
Please enlighten me if this fundemental principal of blade design has been de-bunked!?

I've been told (and read) that this theory was more of a fable than reality... Perhaps an expert on swords can give an answer on this one...

The fullering makes a blade lighter and allows great structural strength for less mass...

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I too have heard that put about, but cannot understand how some thing like that would suddenly become false if it was so widely believed that even I knew of it! I am a little wary of all the new "experts " who debunk the old ideas! Seems a year or two later, they are back in the media, totally contradicting themselves anyway! :lol: :lol:

[Magnus]

Nope, sorry guys...fuller's don't stop the guts from sucking onto the blade...it's a myth. 8)

[Tarbicus]

That seems to be the popular opinion at this martial arts discussion:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/sitemap ... -p-14.html

It seems to be a case of either introducing the I-beam principal os added strength, and/or reducing weight in the blade to bring the balance back to the hand.
(It also seems 'cutting' the grooves does not add strength as mass is not conserved, but the blade will be lighter)

No doubt there are those who will disagree... :wink:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Yup! :lol:
I would love to see the proof of that! It sounds too logical to be a myth! If you have ever tried extracting anything from clay/bayrite/bentonite sodden dregs, you will understand the need for the introduction of air to help ease things! :lol:
I still believe the rib and fullers will aid in this problem! 8) as if...

BTW Jim.... I thought you were a member of RMRS? If not, why not?
Also which part of that link is refering to the myth? Or is it just a handy link allaround?

[Tarbicus]

Yup! :lol:
I would love to see the proof of that! It sounds too logical to be a myth! If you have ever tried extracting anything from clay/bayrite/bentonite sodden dregs, you will understand the need for the introduction of air to help ease things! :lol:

The potential proof is in the structural principle, surely? And, there are blades that are plain and smooth. I wonder if the metals of each type of pugio could hold the key - a stronger blade is smooth, a weaker one fullered or ribbed? Without analyses though ....

BTW Jim.... I thought you were a member of RMRS? If not, why not?

Well, I should be visiting soon-ish.

Also which part of that link is refering to the myth? Or is it just a handy link allaround?

If you read the top posts, and the page before, it's partially a discussion of the fullers on Japanese blades.

[Dan Howard]

The fuller was a way of making the blade lighter and adjusting the balance. As has already been said, the so-called "blood-grove" theory is a myth.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Cheers Jim! I suppose thats why the Gladius Hispanensis had them as well?

As for the link,, all I see is a bunch of adverts for saw blades and other equipment! :?

Dan,
I still have seen no proof of this? As I was saying, I tend to go by my own experience of suction in moist matter when I draw a conclusion!