Leather Lorica Segmentata

[Luca]

Faventianvs,

you are right. I was at Pont Du Gard too, in that occasion. And that group was Ars Dimicandi of course.

Porn movie???? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Antonius Lucretius]

I own a segmentata made by Michael Simkins and I am lucky enough to fit perfectly into it.
Nowadays, unfortunately, it sits in my foot locker with the leathers busted. But each time I wore it I was amazed at its flexibility. I don't see any problems in performing all the tasks described on TC wearing such a cuirass. It is also amazingly light.
Incidentally, TC is just another set of sculptures. The fact that legionaries are all wearing segmentatas during earthworks or building tasks does not necessariy means that they actually did the same in the field.
Actually they don't always wear armour when doing building works.
The message conveyed by TC could pretty well be that "legionaries (identified by the segmentatas) are building things in Dacia".
It looks more and more, to me at least, that the icons "legionary/segmentata", "auxiliary/hamata", "archer/oriental dress" were pretty much understood by those to whom the column was built: the roman populace and the tourists, a.k.a. the civilians.
A hypothesis maye be interesting, or even seducing, but it will still remain only a hypothesis.
So, until archaeological evidence of roman leather armour appears, if ever, I'll stick to metallic armours. Leather being used for many other things, like arming doublets.

[FAVENTIANVS]

Yes, the movie was about the emperor Claudius and his happy wife Mesalina :wink: ...

[L C Cinna]

Well, as already mentioned by others I don't think the legionaries doing earthworks on Traian's column wearing a segementa are much more than an artistic feature.
On the column the legionaries all wear segmentata, the aux. wear chainmail. The purpose of the column is to show all the different actions the soldiers performed during the campaign and I think they are all shown in segmentata to make it easier to recognize them as legionaries and to show how perfectly equipped they all are, but when you take a look at the adamklissi metopes which show the "same" soldiers the majority of legionaries is actually shown wearing chainmail if i remember correctly. So imho this is proof eough that TC shouldn't be taken too serious concerning armour distribution and usage in the army.

[Goffredo]

I hope I don't get Dr. Amato ("Loved one") too angry but I do feel this leather segmentata stuff is baloney (mortadella)!

It just doesn't make sense. Why make such an elaborate leather costume that is just a copy of metal segmentatas, but one that doesn't even protect much. I would think that if hide or leather was used (and I have no real problems with the hypothesis that it was used by ancients and romans too), I would expect that different solutions would have been invented. Anyway I am tired of being nice. I really think its all crap!

[Dan Howard]

Once again I challenge Dr D'Amato to show us unambiguous evidence that segmented leather was used on a battlefield anywhere in the world. All he has produced so far is painted sculptures. Somehow we are expected to believe that because a sculpture is coloured red or blue or green then it must be depicting painted leather. Why do you ignore evidence for enamelled bronze such as the armour described by Homer? Why do you ignore the fact that linen can be dyed? Nobody has given even a single reason why leather armour would be made in the segmented style. What benefit does it give on the battlefield?

[Marius_Ursus]

Once again I challenge Dr D'Amato to show us unambiguous evidence that segmented leather was used on a battlefield anywhere in the world. All he has produced so far is painted sculptures. Somehow we are expected to believe that because a sculpture is coloured red or blue or green then it must be depicting painted leather. Why do you ignore evidence for enamelled bronze such as the armour described by Homer? Why do you ignore the fact that linen can be dyed? Nobody has given even a single reason why leather armour would be made in the segmented style. What benefit does it give on the battlefield?

Ummm...it gets sweaty and moulders?

[Dan Howard]

To continue our off-topic discussion on a previous thread.

About Sea People and Easterners, just to answer to the kind request of Dan, I divide the opinion of Stillman and Tallis in the book Armies of the ANE, saying that some armour found in the Medinet Habu, Karnak, Abu Simbel reliefs are "banded linen (found in Egyptian graves) and/or banded leather"

Dear Dr D'Amato,
It has been a while since I read that book but IIRC those authors didn't offer a single shred of evidence to support their banded linen/leather hypothesis. What citations do they produce to support this? Not only are you building a house of cards, but you are attempting to do it on quicksand.

[Crispvs]

Last year when I happened to be in Rome and also happened to be in full kit (including of course my mild steel lorica segmentata) I came accross someone opposite the Collosseum displaying one of the affore-mentioned leather segmentatas. I was just about to draw my sword and offer it to the chap displaying the leather 'armour' to stab against my own lorica (which has survived being struck by the sheared off steel arm of a cheirobalistra under tension), as long as I could then use it on his 'armour' to demonstrate what a solid thrust would do to it (needless to say, he wasn't wearing it at the time). At that moment however, one of the 'legio plastica' who had been posing for tourist photos, resplendent in red tights and plastic Hollywood helmet, rushed over to tell me that the authorities were not keen on the sight of weapons in the city (apart from their own) and advised me just to talk about the relative merits of steel versus leather. I took his advice but I must say that the chap with the leather lorica looked VERY relieved that I wasn't going to put a hole in his 'armour' after all. Most of the crowd gathered around were Americans who couldn't speak Italian so I took the opportunity to give them a short talk on Roman armour and explain why leather 'armour' would not be practical for genuine combat. Most of them seemed to think what I said made sense and no more notice was taken of the leather 'lorica' (not while I was still there at any rate). Not that I really think that the impressions gained by tourists are any measure of fact or otherwise, but I really was looking forward to demonstrating just how easily the sword would have penetrated the leather 'armour'.

Crispvs

[FAVENTIANVS]

Any pic of that moment?

[Luca]

Crispus wrote:

the authorities were not keen on the sight of weapons in the city

see here an old news about this:
http://www.romanhideout.com/News/2002/t ... 020309.asp

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

But if leather armours ever existed, probably they are from another kind of leather, not that soft kind of leather from that italian reproductions was made of.

Hard leather is very, very hard to punch or cut.

[Peroni]

Salvete,

Avitianus stated;

"But if leather armours ever existed, probably they are from another kind of leather, not that soft kind of leather from that italian reproductions was made of".

Not that I am advocating the use of leather in segmented armour at all, but I agree with Avitianus, inasfar as that certainly a few layers of rawhide would have incredible strength. Likewise a couple of layers of the type of leather we use to sole our military boots would also be strong.

regards,

[Carus Andiae]

It may (or may not) be relevant to your discussion that, contray to previous beliefs, some historians are now suggesting that even the so-called 'sword proof' buff leather coats worn in the 17th-century would have been considered insufficient protection without additional metal armour.

[ambrosius]

Salvete,

Avitianus stated;

"But if leather armours ever existed, probably they are from another kind of leather, not that soft kind of leather from that italian reproductions was made of".

Not that I am advocating the use of leather in segmented armour at all, but I agree with Avitianus, inasfar as that certainly a few layers of rawhide would have incredible strength. Likewise a couple of layers of the type of leather we use to sole our military boots would also be strong.

regards,

Absolutely. It always amazes me why people assume that only a single
layer of leather would ever be used for armour. Sandwich two or three
together, and it becomes twice or three times as resistant. Recently,
we had a thread on how Romans went to extraordinary lengths in order
to sandwich two layers of leather either side of a layer of linen in order
to make a belt. And presumably, this was to make it not only more long-
lasting in itself, but more resistant to enemy sword-cuts. So if making,
say, a muscle-cuirass out of leather, it would be sensible to use the same
kind of effort and time invested in a humble belt. After all, Greek linothoraxes employed many layers of linen. And yes, rawhide would be
even better. (Though perhaps, oiled leather might be a better bet for
a cuirass worn by a marine, as he wouldn't want the seaspray turning
his armour all stretchy & bendy.) :wink:

Ambrosius