Justinian Roman helmet / long mail hauberk

[Decebalus]

Thanks Dan and George.
So it is at least clear that there have been separate armour coifs in existence.

[Dan Howard]

It also tells us that some of the ranks weren't armoured.

[Urselius]

I think that the wording indicating that the long armour could be caught up by rings and thongs makes it inherently more likely to have referred to mail than scale armour. This is because mail is much more easy to fold and "double" than scale, given that scale has to have a substantial textile backing.

I imagine that such long armours would have been ankle-length when mounted, and that such solidiers would have found walking any distance with that type of armour almost impossible. When on foot an easy way of drawing the hem of the armour up to waist height and securing it to a belt would have been of great benefit.

The wording of the Strategikon also states that these 'long armours' should be worn by officers, Buccellarii and Foederati. This leaves the many troops who were not officers or elite cavalrymen to be unarmoured or armoured less comprehensively

[Condottiero Magno]

I think that the wording indicating that the long armour could be caught up by rings and thongs makes it inherently more likely to have referred to mail than scale armour. This is because mail is much more easy to fold and "double" than scale, given that scale has to have a substantial textile backing.

I imagine that such long armours would have been ankle-length when mounted, and that such solidiers would have found walking any distance with that type of armour almost impossible. When on foot an easy way of drawing the hem of the armour up to waist height and securing it to a belt would have been of great benefit.

The wording of the Strategikon also states that these 'long armours' should be worn by officers, Buccellarii and Foederati. This leaves the many troops who were not officers or elite cavalrymen to be unarmoured or armoured less comprehensively

Tying up the hem of mail while on foot is a sensible theory, but what evidence is there for such long armors, especially in art? On the Bayeux Tapestry, the hauberks worn, mounted and on foot, extend to the knee or slightly below it, with some figures wearing chausses and in the East there would've been the option of greaves. IIRC, Harald Hardrada's hauberk was nicknamed Emma and was unusual for extending well below the knees.

[ValentinianVictrix]

Would not a knee length hauberk appear to extend to the wearers ankles if they were then to raise their knees, like a rider of a horse would, just a thought...

[Urselius]

I seem to remember that Hadrada's armour was Byzantine - he certainly served in the Byzantine army early in his career.

I cannot think of any contemporary illustrations of such long armours . However, there are many discrepancies between what is described in Byzantine military writings and what is shown in art. For example many Byzantine military manuals dating to before the late 11th century describe face-covering mail, but the single Byzantine pictorial depiction of such a defence dates to the late 14th century.

I think, with the relatively straight-legged riding stance used by Byzantine cavalry (judging from contemporary illustrations) that an ankle-length mailcoat on horseback, would have reached about halfway down the shin when standing.

[Caius Artorius Castus]

Dan,

Could it not be either mail or scale at the same time this term?

CAC/RPM

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Scale Armor seems to disappear entirely after the Early Byzantine era.

[AMELIANVS]

Well judge from the richness scale armour is depicted in later Byzantine art I strongly believe it was still used quite often.

And there's that mentioned picture of Byzantine face-covering mail:

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Well I see plenty of evidence for Lamellar, maybe it just phased out scale?

[AMELIANVS]

There is no doubt lamellar armour rised in popularity but other forms of protection were used alongside it(sometimes its hard to recognize scale from lamellar)and tradition of scale armour remained especially strong in the east-at least this is impression byzantine art strongly suggest.Reality might be little or more different of course but I see no direct reason for scale rejection by the "Byzantines" .Scale is also very prominetly shown in Carolingian art for the western world:

[ValentinianVictrix]

Scale armour was worn by some of the Norman knights at the Battle of Hastings. The Bayeux Tapestry shows Williams brother, Bishop Odo, wearing one.

[Dan Howard]

I seem to remember that Hadrada's armour was Byzantine - he certainly served in the Byzantine army early in his career.

There is nothing to suggest that the Varangian guard ever wore byzantine lamellar. They were paid plenty enough to be able to afford mail, which is what was preferred by Byzantine officers. Their lamellar was munitions armour that was worn mainly by the lower ranks.

Regarding Harold, the relevant passage comes from the Ljósvetninga Saga:

Konungur sjálfur átti brynju þá er Emma hét og tók hún á mitt bein og var svo sterk að aldrei festi vopn á. Ch. 31.

King [Harald] himself had a coat of mail ([i]brynju) called "Emma" that reached to the knees and was so strong that no weapon could bite into it.[/i]

[Dan Howard]

Scale armour was worn by some of the Norman knights at the Battle of Hastings. The Bayeux Tapestry shows Williams brother, Bishop Odo, wearing one.

The needlework is so crude that you can't say much at all about the armour in the Bayeux Tapestry, but it definitely looks different to most of the other armour being worn. Sir Guy's armour is different too.

[Dan Howard]

Could it not be either mail or scale at the same time this term?

I never said otherwise. The point is that the passage is not clear and the armour in question could equally be referring to mail or scale, so it can't be used as evidence for this topic.